Author Topic: CA20E swap to a CA18DET (Read 26945 times)

Budgie · « **on:** May 28, 2004, 11:36PM »

Ok this question has been floating around for a while.

Can a CA18DET be put into my U12/UA (pintara/corsair)? YES IT CAN

The CA18DET's came out in RNU12 Bluebirds from 1987 through to 1990 I belive.Â So yes, the cars came out with CA18DET's as standard (with AWD gearbox's however) in the form of SSS & SSS-R Bluebirds.Â There are even diesel bluebirds running around in Japan with LD20II motors

.

So we know it can be done, as there are stock Bluebirds running CA18DET's in AWD configurations.

As far as we know, if someone was to swap their CA20E out of a U12 or a UA they would find the CA18DET bolts right up to the same engine mounts and will even bolt straight upto the stock CA20E manual or auto box.

The problem is, thats about all we really know as no one I know has completed or even undertaken this swap.

Its thought that the engine mounts will be fine as well as the gearbox (with a tougher clutch, strengthend auto).Â What about driveshats and CV joints?Â Well if you use a Bluebird front cut, its assumed you can simply swap the parts over.Â Although we don't know if you'll even have to do that!Â The stock CA20E shafts might work fine...

So to sum up, it can be done.Â It has not been done yet (that antrx knows of).Â There are some members planning this swap.

If anyone has anything to add, please do so.

Budgie · « **Reply #1 on:** May 29, 2004, 12:01AM »

The CA18DET in an RNU12.

Notice most things are in the exact same place as any aussie delivered U12's or UA's. The brake booster, power steering fluid, the AC hose down the front, the fuel filter. The list goes on...

noss · « **Reply #2 on:** May 29, 2004, 12:51PM »

budgie, with the driveshafts, you would use the ca20e driveshaft on the passenger (gearbox) side, and the ca18det driveshaft on the drivers side.

fraz · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2004, 06:16PM »

The ca20 drifeshafts will take the power but will wear quicker.
Complete half shafts from an auto sr20/sr18 will fit the ca20 manual box and are the correct length. The outer cv's also fit the hubs, if you can get 2 complete half-shaft assemblies you have it sorted.

The difference between the motors is obviously the twin cam head but the ca18 block is shorter than the ca20 by about 15mm so no problem there.
You will need to run the ca18det flywheel as it is an 8 bolt item and the non turbo ca's are all 6 bolt. I would guess the clutch plate fits the box input shaft but a tough ca20 one is easy to get hold of.
The awd pressure plate is pretty beefy so it would hold up pretty well.

I have heard that the ca18det auto cranks are different to the manual ones but they apper similar to me, tho i havent measured them.

If you could get a front cut then you will have everything you will need, possibly a bigger in tank pump will be all thats required.

Budgie · « **Reply #4 on:** Jun 4, 2004, 12:18PM »

Ok, i've collected this information from a few people...

The stock CA18DET in the RNU12 bluebird runs 7psi of boost.Â You could run the motor stock at that boost level with your stock fuel pump (the U12/UA pump), but i've been told its not advisable.Â Especially if your pump has been pumping fuel for 200,000k/s and 15 years.

The best course of action would be to invest in a better pump and regulator to allow for any future increase in the boost level.Â I've been told it will be impossible to NOT FEEL an unbelievable urge to increase the boost to around 10psi

.

fraz · « **Reply #5 on:** Jun 4, 2004, 05:43PM »

The ca18det u12 runs a t25 turbo. It tends to run out of boost near full revs and if you up the bost it will be worse, makes your engine last longer tho

A t28 off a sr20 turbo like a s14/15 will do nicely and is a bolt on.
The s15 sr20 t28 is apparently very good but costly unles you find someone upgrading their s15

The t28 off a gti-r is a good turbo also as it has a smaller exhaust housing to create boost earlier and is very suitable for the ca18det

the top mount intercooler isnt that great either as it dosent have the best airflow- well cool air anyway
Stick a series 4 or 5 rx7 intercooler on as a cheap upgrade. Theyre not supa dupa but way better than stock and nice and cheap

tomo · « **Reply #6 on:** Jun 12, 2004, 12:24AM »

hey dudes i was surfin some american pulsar sites and found this
Q: Would the ca18det line up with the transmission for a KA24E, and if it
does could I order the CA without the tranny for a cheaper price?

A: The trannies are the same, with the exception of the bellhousings, so
you would need to buy parts to make it work anyway, not to mention tracking
the correct parts down.

so if i get a trx 2.4l lsd gear box bolt my ca20e bell housing on it and bolt it to a ca18det it work?

noss · « **Reply #7 on:** Jun 12, 2004, 01:23AM »

yeah that would work

Colby · « **Reply #8 on:** Jun 13, 2004, 01:28AM »

This sounds like a reasonable swap.

how do you plan to make the swap all legal? I know there are strict laws about changing over to engines that arent usually in that model of car. Unless of course you plan to keep it all secret and not inform the authorities. but you risk your car being siezed, or insurance screwing up.

I am currently looking into the leagal side of a swap (vic roads, insurance). So if I find anything i'll post ya, or vice versa

If anyone has gone through the process in Vic it would be good to chat to them.

su8l1m3 · « **Reply #9 on:** Jun 13, 2004, 02:40AM »

hey budg, i've got a mate who's got a u12 sittin in his back yard for spare parts man... i'm not sure if it's a ka24 or a ca20... i'm guessin from his description that it's a ka so if ya need parts of any sort just gimme a yell n i'll c wat i can do... i'm also plannin on stealin (for a price ofcourse) his manual transmission, so i can dump it into my dyin auto tran... lol

tomo · « **Reply #10 on:** Jun 13, 2004, 01:12PM »

what about input shafts and centre bearings flywheels and clutches and shit like that? is the ka box cable clutch or hudraulic operated..... what are they like strength wise.

fraz · « **Reply #11 on:** Jun 13, 2004, 04:14PM »

CA's and SR's dont have a spigot bearing, well fwd ones dont, i think i saw a KA flywheel at the wreckers and it had no bearing

not sure about cable or hydraulic, look at some pics of KA members engine bays

Jtas · « **Reply #12 on:** Jun 14, 2004, 04:43AM »

the KA box has a hydraulic clutch.

noss · « **Reply #13 on:** Jun 14, 2004, 07:31PM »

it also has a spigot bearing from memory.

why is this now a ka gearbox thread? its a ca20e -> ca18det thread

Budgie · « **Reply #14 on:** Jun 14, 2004, 08:27PM »

Tomo and I are considering the KA24E LSD box for the modifiction noss.

The actual engine swap is 'easy' its the gearbox and driveshafts that will have to be discussed further.

tomo · « **Reply #15 on:** Jun 14, 2004, 08:29PM »

'cauz we wanna use the ks box in the ca20e to ca18det conversion. thats why its posted in the thread and i was trying to frind out some information about it while posting the possibilities on the thread... thats all
ok just a few more questions to throw out there
if we used a ka gear box with a ca bellhousing which fly wheel should i use?
does or does it not have a spigot bush?
are the input shafts the same?
and are the linkages the same?

noss · « **Reply #16 on:** Jun 14, 2004, 09:02PM »

ok, i know about you saying that you were considering putting the ka24e box internals into a ca20e bellhousing, but then there were posts asking about sr and ka boxes which was getting a little off topic, this is a FAQ we want to keep it as ON TOPIC as possible.

tomo · « **Reply #17 on:** Jun 23, 2004, 11:18PM »

ok just a kinda pointless note but i got nothin to do.
to day i was talkin to a cv specialist when i went to get lunch (he's also the brother of a guy i work with) and i was debating my drive shaft problem with him. he said he'd make up a set using ka inners and ca outters (thats using a ka gear box) to see how they would fit. for nothing! what a champ... just gotta put a sticker of his busness on the back window of my car "percision drive" he does gear boxes and diffs etc. and if that works he'll make up a set with stronger joints that (i'll cost me materials) fucking champion. i also asked him about make a ka box stronger and he said "wait till that one blows up". i told him about the site.
budgie if it all works out that the final problem sorted

fuck yeah

BEEFY_1600 · « **Reply #18 on:** Jun 23, 2004, 11:51PM »

What could i put a ca in my trx and keep the standard box and driveshafts but swap the bellhousing for a ca20 one? And has anyone looked @ the wiring situation ?

Budgie · « **Reply #19 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 04:51AM »

Tomo, great work mate. So if this works thats a KA24E LSD box in a CA20E bellhousing, running KA inner CV's and CA outer shafts?

... sweet!!

The wiring should be 'easy' as I will be working from a front cut and there are many CA18DET wiring diagrams floating around. I don't think it will be that hard, do you tomo?

tomo · « **Reply #20 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 07:16AM »

thats the mission budgie and its looking abit better than the grim out look before.
as for the wireing i am using an aftermarket computer which is set up to go straight onto a ca18det. so it is just going to be plug and play there for me. but with the standard comp its not to bad aslong as its complete, thats the key (make sure all ur connections are good no more bodgie shit this is a DETSAIR now!!!)

hey beefy_trx
umm yeah you should be able to use your ka box and drop a ca18det in there just gotta change the bell housing on the front of the gear box to a ca one. i read some where and i quote noss to this that the ca and ka's have the same engine mountings.
you wont be able to use your standard drive shafts tho... as the ka ones do not fit the ca box ( as far as i know)

BEEFY_1600 · « **Reply #21 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 11:45AM »

But u be only using the ca bellhouing so shouldnt the diff from the ka stay so ill be able to use the ka shafts?

fraz · « **Reply #22 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 04:12PM »

i dont think the ca bellhousing will fit the ka gearset and outer case. well the gearset maybe but probably not the case and the diff.
I dont have my measuring stick and camera handy but if you get some measurements of the ka box and internals/diff etc, i can tell you if they will fit a ca bellhousing
if you do run the ca bellhousing, the ca18det flywheel/clutch/startermotor will fit

OR you could just get a lsd for the ca box

the gears can take the punishment and its a guaranteed bolt in

BEEFY_1600 · « **Reply #23 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 05:22PM »

Looking @ the nissan workshop manual they look excatly the same box except the bell housing all and their got different ratios their even the same model number

tomo · « **Reply #24 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 05:32PM »

hey fraz
where could i get a lsd to suit a ca box? you say the gears can take it but what about the shafts and shit that the cogs sit on? i destroyed one before while my ca20 was stock i cant rember what part broke i just lost 1st then 2nd then 3rd and 4th its was fucked well and true. i dunno using the ca box would be a major time and money savor but i never heard of a lsd for one? unless you just mean use one out of a pulsar 1.8l............ mm confusion = head ake

noss · « **Reply #25 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 05:42PM »

they're not the same model number beefy this was posted maybe last week about the gearbox model numbers.

also, i discovered a while ago that all/most nissan clutches are the same.

noss · « **Reply #26 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 05:46PM »

Quote from: fraz on Jun 5, 2004, 06:32PM

Hey man, got some bad news for ya
All CA series fwd automatics are RL gearboxes.

The model number is RL4F02A
The code numbers are:
ca18/e/sÂ Â Â Â 21X67Â up to 1988
ca18/e/sÂ Â Â Â 23X11Â after mid 1988
all ca20Â Â Â Â Â 21X24Â up to 1988
ca20 carbÂ Â Â 23X02Â after mid 1988
ca20efiÂ Â Â Â Â 23X06Â Â after mid 1988

I will probably be at the wreckers tomorrow if i have time and i can get the auto code of the car i got the ca18de head off

Quote from: noss on Jun 5, 2004, 08:29PM

the manual box in the aussie u12 ca20e is a RS5F50A, the auto gearbox in the aussie u12 ca20e is a RL4F02A

the manual boxes in the aussie ka24e are RS5F50A & RS5F50V, the auto boxes are RE4F02A & RE4F02V (the V is the LSD box)

as you can see beefy, its the ca20e that has the same gearbox, not the ka24e

Budgie · « **Reply #27 on:** Jun 24, 2004, 09:25PM »

I'm going to be a nazi and delete any questions that have already been answered in this thread from now on.Â So be warned.

This is a reasearch and planning thread concerning the CA20E to CA18DET conversion.Â Eventually it will be a FAQ.

fraz · « **Reply #28 on:** Jun 25, 2004, 04:47PM »

Tomo-
i mean you could put 300hp through a ca20 box. Some boxes are better so you want one that is hydraulic clutch, and has the big bung for the reverse and neutral sensor
You would also need a clutch, a ca18det u12 pressure plate and flywheel (possibly a s13 one not sure)
Gearbox life depends mostly on the driver.
*rant*
i have driven my u12 for over 120,000 kays and never had a problem with the box, i fitted one 10,000 ago as mine had noisy bearings that needed replacing and a replacement box was available for nothing.
My mate got about 30m up the street last saturday night and got it stuck in 5th and 3rd- dont ask me how
I spent 5 hours on sunday, hungover, removing the box, opening it up, stripping the selectors down, putting it back together, and refitting it.

ANYWAY, the gears have plenty of meat in them. Give me a few months and ill tell you how long it will last with some more power (like 3 times stock)
Ill ask a few guys i know running n13 ca18det pulsars what boxes they have and how they handle it

tomo · « **Reply #29 on:** Jun 27, 2004, 09:01PM »

thanks heaps fraz you are a undisputed sorce of information.

pintara det · « **Reply #30 on:** Jul 26, 2004, 11:17PM »

My mate and i fitted a ca18det to his n13,im pretty sure it was lsd,had to use a exa flywheel.With 120kw@the wheels, the only problem he had was the clutch.

Pringles · « **Reply #31 on:** Jul 26, 2004, 11:26PM »

lol clutchs really dont like us do they

Xedus101 · « **Reply #32 on:** Aug 4, 2004, 03:19PM »

I'm looking at doing this conversion aswell and i've just been down to vicroads to get some info.
First to do this modification we'll need an Approval Certificate. To get this alot of things will need to be upgraded. Because this engine was not offered as an option for this vehicle we have to upgrade things like brakes, not sure on chasis. But anything that affects the safety of the passengers of the vehicle.

Engineers Certificates are needed as we would be going over 10% of the current power figure. All other related components such as structure, suspension, brakes etc need to be the equivalent of those fitted to the same model as the engine came from. They also advice that we see one of the VASS signatory before commencing this modification. So it's starting to look a lot more expensive. i'll see if i can get an engineer to take a look at what we want to do so we can see exactly what will need to be upgraded.

Hope this helps some of you out.

noss · « **Reply #33 on:** Aug 4, 2004, 03:54PM »

the u12 import brakes are exactly the same as the local u12 brakes so you dont have to worry there. the approval/engineering side of things is much simpler than you might be led to believe.

tomo · « **Reply #34 on:** Aug 4, 2004, 06:50PM »

i have rang around the rta (act gov bull shit) and no alerations need to be done to the car if you put a stock ca18det in to a stock corsair.

Budgie · « **Reply #35 on:** Aug 4, 2004, 08:14PM »

Hey tomo, I got this from an EXA driver who just registered here- MY question was, did you try to mate the KA24E LSD to the CA18DET box.

Yeah, I did have thoughts of doing that, the box and motor DO NOT join up though, the bolt pattern is completely different. I then had thoughts of using the bell-housing from an Exa box on the Pintara box, but the diff was too big and the bell housing would not mate up with the rest of the box properly, even though the bolt holes all matched up, I then had plans of machining out the Exa bell-housing a bit so it would fit the diff inside it, but that never happened.

Do you have any news on the gearbox front tomo?

tomo · « **Reply #36 on:** Aug 5, 2004, 09:59AM »

i was goin to go and pick one up this weekend but now i am thinkin maybe not. i might have to wait till i pull my engine out and take the ca20 bell housing with me and see if it will fit? in theory it does... dosent it? i am kinda thinkin the whole thing through after this morning. ( read my post in general discusion)

tomo · « **Reply #37 on:** Aug 5, 2004, 10:00AM »

what gear box did he use?

Budgie · « **Reply #38 on:** Aug 5, 2004, 03:04PM »

I'll ask him mate.

vector · « **Reply #39 on:** Aug 11, 2004, 04:32PM »

so you guys are looking for a lsd fwd g/b for a ca18? im told the n13 boxes bolt onto the ca18

tomo · « **Reply #40 on:** Aug 11, 2004, 08:43PM »

not all the n13 boxs are lsd and there very hard to find... but a valid point

budgie i brought another car... suzuki gti 94' and after driving it a bit i like it
the corsair is still in the shed in bits :-( after the stupid kangaroo but i have a ca18det (bored to 1.9l with 550cc injectors, forgies etc (got it out of a smashed pulsar), t28bb, r32 intercooler.... a whole lot for shit brought most of it from a dude i work with now. but i have another job now and work six days a week so i dunno how project detsair is goin to happen ( very very slowly)
peace out muther fukkers

vector · « **Reply #41 on:** Aug 11, 2004, 09:05PM »

theres a guy selling a import box on the pulsar forums 350 bucks he reckons hes aproaching the limits with it he wants 350
"KEN13 import gear box 4.471:1 final ratio - $350"
"KEN13 import gear box in bits, heavy damage, suit parts - $10"
also a whole bunch of random ca18 stuff gearbox is open centre not sure what that means sorry...lol

Budgie · « **Reply #42 on:** Aug 11, 2004, 09:50PM »

Sell all the parts to me Tomo

... lol

Nah good work mate. I'm still researching CA20E auto ideas, strengthening and modifiying. I'll let you know as soon as I have some solid information.

fraz · « **Reply #43 on:** Aug 11, 2004, 10:03PM »

Quote from: tomo on Aug 5, 2004, 09:59AM

i was goin to go and pick one up this weekend but now i am thinkin maybe not. i might have to wait till i pull my engine out and take the ca20 bell housing with me and see if it will fit? in theory it does... dosent it? i am kinda thinkin the whole thing through after this morning. ( read my post in general discusion)

Its a bolt on.

Budgie · « **Reply #44 on:** Aug 11, 2004, 11:23PM »

I'm thinking the CA20E's bellhousing it big enough Fraz, but the housing of whatever box this exa driver used was not? (to fit the KA24E LSD)... Maybe a CA18DE housing?

noss · « **Reply #45 on:** Aug 12, 2004, 12:29PM »

why are you wasting so much time trying to figure out how to hook up an lsd to a ca20e box? the majority of pulsar drivers who are running the sr20det dont have lsd and they have no problems with traction.. i think the lsd is the least of your problems and its making these projects stagnate.

Budgie · « **Reply #46 on:** Aug 12, 2004, 12:56PM »

Oh don't worry noss, as soon as urq and I sell the pintara Ti i'm gonna search for and buy a CA18DET front cut. Hopefully no more than a month until we get rid of the Ti. I'll have $3000 then, hopefully i'll pickup a CA18DET front cut for no more than $2k. As I said, keep a look out for me and once I have the cash in my bank account i'll start calling around.

tomo · « **Reply #47 on:** Aug 15, 2004, 02:02PM »

budgie did you ever consider if you get a front cut thats auto getting the tail shaft hole plated up and just using that box? on the gti web site some people are useing suzuki cultus gear box (which is a suzuki gti which is awd and turbo) just getting them plated up and away they go! the box maybe a bit heavier but they gotta be the strongest solution to your problem

Budgie · « **Reply #48 on:** Aug 16, 2004, 02:53PM »

No haven't considered that. Is that possible in your opinions Fraz/Adam/Noss?

noss · « **Reply #49 on:** Aug 16, 2004, 02:56PM »

i've always suggested it. i dont see why it wouldnt work.

SSS · « **Reply #50 on:** Aug 16, 2004, 03:38PM »

If you can beef up the auto and manualize it (like i'm trying to get evenflow to do), you may as well.

iren · « **Reply #51 on:** Aug 16, 2004, 08:25PM »

question: how would a manualized auto tranny perform? So far (that is after driving the newer shift-matic cars), I felt they're lacking the reaction time..

plugging up the AWD box is a fine idea, and may I suggest you plug up the front outdrives and send the power to the rear instead? LSD unit for the U12 rear diff is everywhere.

Budgie · « **Reply #52 on:** Aug 16, 2004, 09:15PM »

I'm not spending 20k on this swap iren. RWD/AWD conversions are out and we aren't even considering them.

I'm going to ask pooky about the auto very soon. His XC has a fully manualised 3 speed in it and he can hook me up very nicely with internal modifications to the stock CA18DET AWD auto box. The advantage to that, is i'm sure there are alot of auto AWD CA18DET boxes around from people who got cuts for pulsars or whatever, and no longer need the boxes. Hence, spares will be easy to come by.

And the auto will bolt right up to the CA18DET... suprising that!

fraz · « **Reply #53 on:** Aug 19, 2004, 05:58AM »

Just drill out the oil hole to the clutch packs from the servo with a 3/4 drill (i think) It will make it change gear with much more force and speed

I have seen it done on a falcon box, but i havent seen inside a fwd nissan one

I dont think awd->fwd box is a good idea. These are big boxes, the centre diff and housing are part of the box and cany really be removed. Also- say you disconnect the rear shaft, then what, as if you leave it to spin, then the centre diff will transfer all the drive to it and youwont move.
Same thing if you fix it so it cant spin, then you will have 2x the drive at the front which would blow the centre diff
Next time im at the importers, ill get some pics

SSS · « **Reply #54 on:** Aug 19, 2004, 08:00PM »

If i were doing this, i'd remove the transfer case/centre diff and make sure it's only driving the front driveshafts.

Budgie · « **Reply #55 on:** Aug 20, 2004, 02:45PM »

Hummmm. We'll i'm going to have an AWD box to muck around with anyway, so we'll have to see.

SSS · « **Reply #56 on:** Aug 20, 2004, 04:57PM »

Quote from: Budginator on Aug 20, 2004, 02:45PM

Hummmm. We'll i'm going to have an AWD box to muck around with anyway, so we'll have to see.

Damn straight.

Budgie · « **Reply #57 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 12:42PM »

Some pics and updated info. I've since bought an RNU12 bluebird instead of performing this swap. Here are some pics that will shed more light on the swap for anyone wanting to do it.

The crossmember from the U12 would have to be removed and replaced with mounts used by the RNU12. Notice the missing crossmember on the bluebird running from radiator to firewall. This cross member on the U12 holds the left hand engine mount (radiator mount) and the right hand mount (firewall mount). On the bluebird these mounts are totally differant, especially the right hand mount on the firewall.

Notice the big 'pipe' on the bluebird running across the front of the car. This is square on the U12. Another differance.

The front engine mount is exactly the same on each car.

The rear engine mount is also exactly the same. This is a shot of the bluebirds mount (under the battery tray).

The left hand mount that sits infront of the radiator (its the same on auto and manual bluebirds). Auto CA20E & KA24E powered U12's don't have a mount here (manual's do). Its differant to the manual mounts on the aussie delivered cars though. To perform a swap, this would have to be changed, it mounts onto the 'pipe' like cross member that runs along the front of the bluebird. On the manual CA20E's and KA24E's this mount is connected to the cross member that runs from radiator to firewall, which is missing on the bluebird.

The major differance between the two motors and their mounts. The bluebirds right hand engine mount (firewall mount) is located much higher up than the aussie cars. It does not bolt onto the crossmember as discussed earlier, but bolts onto a bracket that is welded directly onto the firewall. This bracket does not exists on the CA20E powered U12's. It would have to be welded on, or the bluebird mount adapted to suit the CA20E's existing mount location.

You can see the brown mount on the CA20E car sits right down next to the exhausts flex pipe. The bluebirds mount sits much higher up, about half way up the firewall.

And one final pic of the two engine bays just for kicks.

noss · « **Reply #58 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 12:58PM »

budge just thinking, did you bother to measure all this up? although the mounts might be different (i.e. no crossmember on the bluebird) the mounts on the local u12 might line up with the engine, meaning no change of mounts. you cant really say that the mounts wont fit unless you stick the ca18det in the local u12 or measure it up accurately.

Budgie · « **Reply #59 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 01:02PM »

Nope, i didn't measure it up. Im just posting this stuff up as a bit of extra info for people.

There is no way the right hand mount would fit (firewall), not in a million years. It would not bolt straight up, modifcations would have to be done.

The left hand mount (radiator) could be adapted I think.

SSS · « **Reply #60 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 06:07PM »

Please get rid of that top mount IC budge.
It looks about as effective as a fart in a wind machine.

JIMB0 · « **Reply #61 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 07:39PM »

What are thoose things on top of the struts with the wires running from them?

SSS · « **Reply #62 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 07:50PM »

It is electronic suspension damper control.

Budgie · « **Reply #63 on:** Oct 22, 2004, 08:35PM »

Quote from: SSS on Oct 22, 2004, 06:07PM

Please get rid of that top mount IC budge.
It looks about as effective as a fart in a wind machine.

Its my 'interwarmer' adam