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U12 Bluebird, Pintara & Stanza => performance and handling => Topic started by: nokey on Feb 11, 2008, 09:46AM
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hey guys i finally got around to getting my extractors after months of debating.the bloke orderd me hurricane extractors,and all up with them being fitted $370 ,which i dont know if it is good but i thought i would ask you guys ive read some posts about hurricane being shit so i thought i would ask if any of you guys have them on your pinny,cheers guys ;)
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yer i looked a bit more and found people are paying around $300 to $320,hmm i feel ripped off but its ok atleast ill have them im not game enough to ask about a cat back exhaust,anyway if there any good im still interested in hearing guys thanks, i hope my exhaust will be a nice note as my car sounds like a tractor :-[ so yer and its an auto so it doesent help lol.
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i have Lukey extractors on mine and payed 170 for them, but i fitted them myself. Not sure what hurricane extractors are like but i assume they would be very similar if not the same as other brands. You cant go too far wrong with them and anything is better than the standard manifold. You will notice the difference.
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and if any of you guys have a nice sounding exhaust i wouldent mind hearing what it is.when i first got the car i went a rice burner cannon then got it taken off as it was rubbing my gaurd and melting it a bit :o.but my dad just got one put on for me i didnt know,its just a custom tip one from the exhaust bloke sound ok first week now it rattles a bit every mnow and then.and sounds like im a truck ,so i am going to get catback and a different cat but i have no idea wat muffler to get hoping for somthing deep and kinda loud not enough to atract the cops something loud under load but still has a rumble ,maybe lukey or similiar?cheers guys ???
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i have Lukey extractors on mine and payed 170 for them, but i fitted them myself. Not sure what hurricane extractors are like but i assume they would be very similar if not the same as other brands. You cant go too far wrong with them and anything is better than the standard manifold. You will notice the difference.
lol better than standard manifold? not for the $300 you pay, OR $170. Off the shelf items are shite, for example ca20 extractors run the same size primaries yet there is a 400cc displacement difference.
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if you saw my manifold you would agree they look better then stock they look like someone pour salt on them then took a crap on them then painted the with rust.,but its just an upgrade from them,im getting later down the track bigger cat vn maybe flexi and piping im just working my way there,but thats ages away coz im to lazy to do it,but im chucking in 2 petrol blower vacs up to my air intake hopefully pumping out 14 psi ,and yes i am joking or am i?
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if you saw my manifold you would agree they look better then stock they look like someone pour salt on them then took a crap on them then painted the with rust.,but its just an upgrade from them,im getting later down the track bigger cat vn maybe flexi and piping im just working my way there,but thats ages away coz im to lazy to do it,but im chucking in 2 petrol blower vacs up to my air intake hopefully pumping out 14 psi ,and yes i am joking or am i?
Like this..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4emAuCcktk ;D
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lmfao i didnt think anyone would have tryed that before lol good work.
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your rattle could be the rubber strap holding the muffler, sometimes they work themselves loose.
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You obviously dont own a CA20 pintara or corsair if u believe stock is better. I dont know anyone who has a stock manifold anymore because they all crack, they are shite, and they weigh a tonne. Any off the shelf extractors will give u better response and a better sound. Well worth the $170 i believe. I know i could have got it cheaper but i was in a hurry.
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You obviously dont own a CA20 pintara or corsair if u believe stock is better. I dont know anyone who has a stock manifold anymore because they all crack, they are shite, and they weigh a tonne. Any off the shelf extractors will give u better response and a better sound. Well worth the $170 i believe. I know i could have got it cheaper but i was in a hurry.
Wouldn't argue with chris mate. He does know what he's talking about.
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Ok Krayzie, everyone is free to voice their opinion, I still stand by mine...I'll let you realise it later.
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is there a better alternative to the manifold on the ka24e?
brand?
price?
gains?
will it be reasonable upgrade?
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Ur probably right chris lol. Can u explain a little more why the stock manifold is better on a ca20, i think u said it had a larger capacity or something like that, how does this make a difference?
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I have no experiance with the CA20 motor so I can't give a reason as to why. I simply assumed you were talking about a KA24E header, which is not so bad.
The displacement issue I was talking about was how ka24e headers have the same size primaries as a ca20 primary variant.
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is there a better alternative to the manifold on the ka24e?
brand?
price?
gains?
will it be reasonable upgrade?
Unfortunately not. :(
For curiosity's sake i still want to build a decent set of headers for one of my U12's: stepped primaries, 4-1 merge collector, megaphone style outlet etc etc.
I firmly believe that there is some decent gains to be had with good headers, i just haven't found the magic combination to try in engine analyzer pro.
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k thanks Chris, i understand what u r saying now. The only experience i have is with CA20.
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whats a good option for a cheap cat conv...?
had two ideas,
smash the webbing out the middle of the cat and weld it onto the zorst to "appear legal..."
or.... use a say....commodore cat? theyre 2.5" and theyve gotta be better than the standard u12 items...?
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smash the webbing out the middle of the cat and weld it onto the zorst to "appear legal..."
Youll get flamed (refer to Unbalanced_ thread), and its illegal as you know, and bad for the environment, and a hefty fine, but its your choice.
or.... use a say....commodore cat? theyre 2.5" and theyve gotta be better than the standard u12 items...?
There is an article on Autospeed about replacing a stock pintara cat converter with either a commodore or magna cat converter, namely because it is bigger and still legal. Ill try find it.
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...can't really get much cheaper then smashing out the insides of your cat-converter :D It's what I'd do
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...can't really get much cheaper then smashing out the insides of your cat-converter :D It's what I'd do
If you had a cat? ;D
EDIT: Here is the article. http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_109456/article.html (http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_109456/article.html)
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Just wondering, Does anyone actually know anyone who has been done for smashing the inside of their cat out? I think if we drove skylines, rx7's or wrx's then we may have something to worry about. Dont think they would bother sniffing a corsair / pintarra. But yeh it is illegal and we are all law abiding citizens ;).
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If you had a cat? ;D
EDIT: Here is the article. http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_109456/article.html (http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_109456/article.html)
cheers bill,
most coppers would just get a torch and look under the car at the exhaust system and see a cat and you wouldnt have a problem..its not until the epa get hold of you until your in troble..
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meh loud exhausts are rice-tastic, cheap headers are pointless if you dont spend 300 dollars just for the part its probably some taiwanese mass produced crap. im sure you gain more from the weight reduction of getting rid of that cast iron than you gain from exhaust flow. and if your engine isn't intaking more air than stock and adding more gas you aren't going to get much out of it besides a lot of vibration and cop attention. as far as headers and cats go, how much are you gonna get outta a stock engine? 4-5 hp on a ka?, probably less on a ca20? headers also tend to shift your powerband higher and decrease swirl in the combustion chamber at partial throttle which can reduce torque and efficiency (depending on primary size and length and collector size, the bigger it is the worse it is). in daily driving situations useable torque is more important than a couple extra ponies after 5k rpm. imo not worth the price, have someone braze up your stock cracked headers with an oxyfuel torch or something im sure thats a hell of a lot cheaper. also how hard is it to remove and install an exhaust manifold, its got 8-10 bolts on the head and two on the cat as long as you have a jack and stands and a 12 or 14 mm ratchet you can probably do it assuming that the taiwanese kid who made the headers even drilled the holes correctly.
i would only hollow out my cat if it was poisoned (full of carbon and clogged) and i had no money, the price of a new stock cat is ridiculous, and junkyards in california cant even sell them used legally. although swapping to a cat from a v6 or other big engine is a pretty good idea if you can get a hold of one, but whatif the flange isn't the same then you need to weld. cars with their cats removed (hondas especially) tend to sound really horrible but thats my opinion. trust me you dont wanna grow out of having a loud car and have to go back and spend all your money all over again. im only 20 and im already sick of the noise.
i have a 2.5 inch mandrel bent exhaust with the stock 2 inch cat and an obx loopback muffler on my civic, it sounds awesome and flows well, the best part is its only loud when I open it up so i can pull up next to a cop and not piss myself, yet vtec still rips really hard and loud. here in California modified exhaust is a 900 us dollar ticket and the cop doesn't even have to prove that you even have a modified exhaust you have to prove that you dont to get out of it. besides that your car is gonna smell like ass (or gas however you wanna look at it)
(I really couldn't even imagine a lazy donut-munching cop getting down on his stomache to look under your car to see if you have a cat )
trust me i've driven with open headers and i've driven with no muffler for over a year, it gets old really fast.
sorry that was way too long but you dont have to read it if you dont want.
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trust me i've driven with open headers and i've driven with no muffler for over a year, it gets old really fast.
That's fairly hardcore there my friend, the only place i'd consider driving with open headers would be at the track / drag strip.
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yah i know i wouldn't have done it if i didn't absolutely have to, and since my car doesn't have a heater shitloads of exhaust gets into the cabin and it smells horrible and CO in your bloodstream doesn't feel good, plus if it rains you gotta keep the windows open... yah its ballsworthy. not to mention my car is probably running a 9:1 afr because my ecu has a "racing chip" in it bleh...
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I thought NA engines ran like crap with no headers/extractors? Don't they need a little backpressure to work properly?
I could be wrong though ::)
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backpressure = amount of noise your exhaust makes
in a performance exhaust you want F all backpressure, people often confuse the term backpressure with performance tuning, backpressure is found on smaller restrictive exhausts hence why they are quiet, smaller exhausts give you more torque down low in the rpm range as the hot gases dont expand in the large pipe, they keep their heat and move quicker (denser air needs more energy to move). Thats why cars with larger exhausts tend to feel sluggish down low, and cars with open headers just feel like ass under x rpm, but once the rpm's are high, the gasses arn't fighting to run down this small tube, instead they have this large open space to escape so the backpressure in this system is by far lower than a smaller diameter system and hence the loudness and good performance at high rpm.
if you've ever noticed a pressure gauge fitted onto a racing exhaust system you'll notice they hate any backpressure in the system.
correct me if im wrong anyone, i havn't done exhaust research for a while :), it's abit sketchy to me right now hehe
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umm i just meant that i was running without a cat or exhaust i still had the manifold on... actually if you run an engine without any exhaust manifold air from the outside will come in through the exhaust port. at a certain part of one of the strokes (cant remember when to be honest) inbetween exhaust pulses it creates a vacuum and the air from outside can enter the combustion chamber and burn exhaust valves by increasing air fuel ratio which causes the engine to run lean...
so yah never start an engine without an exhaust manifold unless you are trying to destroy it. having backpressure helps prevent gas reversion because the hot gasses tend to flow toward the cooler area (outside the exhaust theoretically)
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having backpressure helps prevent gas reversion because the hot gasses tend to flow toward the cooler area (outside the exhaust theoretically)
stepped primaries ftw
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Correct; higher pressure usually exists in smaller pipes, so when the primary is stepped to a larger pipe size, the larger pipe will be at lower pressure.
Higher pressure zones always transition as fast as possible to zones of lower pressure.
This transition causes a pressure differential, so in the case of high pressure in primary diameter 1, a vacuum can be created due to the lower pressure existing in primary diameter 2 (diameter 2 > diameter 1).
This vacuum is what we want, to "suck" or "scavenge" combusted gas out of the engine and exhaust port as fast as possible.
So, in the case of the KA24, we'd want:
- pipe size coming off the head slightly larger than the diameter of the exhaust ports (this also creates a lip to help stop exhaust flow reversion back into the port / combustion chamber).
- after a predetermined length of primary pipe size 1, step up to a slightly larger pipe size (primary pipe size 2) and run the length of this to the collector, ending somewhere between the sump and firewall.
- all 4 primary pipe size 2 pipes terminate into a determined length and taper 4 into 1 collector, with an exit diameter of approximately 2.5". This will create a further diameter increase, promoting a pressure differential to "scavenge" exhaust gas out of the primary pipes.
- tapered transition from collector exit (2.5") to 3" to join the remainder of the exhaust.
So, essentially, the idea is to get the pipes right so you have effectively created a suction in the exhaust.
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wow...thats a shitload of technical humnums....lol
so is there an easy way to get more power outta ka without goin to a scientest to get your exhaust designed?
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Short answer, no.
But you can do:
3" flex pipe
3" highflow cat
3" piping from cat to rear muffler
This is assuming that you have / are going to do headwork / cam.
Otherwise for a stock head:
2.5" flex pipe
2.5" highflow cat
2.5" piping from cat to rear muffler
Both these systems should use mandrel bends for max flow.
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I strongly agree with the Scientist.. ;D
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ok cool...so whats that gonna cost me...?
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which one? 3", possibly $600 including cat, 2.5" i'd say about $500-550 with cat.
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anyway i got them on sounds way better.seems to be alot more deeper note and revs abit more harder and ive lost no down low torque actually improved flat spot.just need to get my 2.5 put in and then it'll be sweet ;D
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awesome to hear nokey!
also thanks heaps SSS and CHR1S...
invaluable is your heads...
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also thanks heaps SSS and CHR1S...
invaluable is your heads...
heh, no worries, only here to help.
It's a pity there wasn't demand for a good set of proven U12 extractors, otherwise i'd pull my finger out and get some done. :(
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What kind of price, im sure some of us would be in, especially a few SA dudes...
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Couldn't say i'm sorry bill... plus i wouldn't want to get anyones hopes up as if they don't make the kind of improvement that i expect, i wouldn't be able to sell them for even what off the shelf genie's / hurricane headers cost.
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Just verifying Adam here,
The reason it would be a fair bit more expensive than the genie ones so to speak is that;
1) They are a custom design of Adam's own time in researching through what his learnt.
2) There is more material to be consumed in making the headers
3) Alot more welding than the simple genie/pacemaker ones
4) The collector would probably cost half that of the genie/pacemaker ones in the first place
There is a few more, but you get the point why a set of GOOD headers are so $. Ever wondered why Honda headers are like $1400? Look.
(http://is.rely.net/1-870-36512-l-jK9IKZ5ZYXJKTM68Z8CgMQ.jpg)
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Plus dyno time. :(
On the same token, no one with a U12 is going to pay even $500 for a set of proven headers.
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You would probably get the occasional people who are serious about their NA KA/CA such as I was last year, I was ready to fork out 650 for a custom set to be made, but I just never got around to it :-\
But for the effort of expression of interest, I dare say no-one would say a thing, or someone will.. but months later :(
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I'm interested stooges.... oh wait, the have to get the clutch put in first...... ;D ;D
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no offense habib, but thats what everyone says lol
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im in...fuck the suspension off....if you were in sa id hand mt Ti over to you and say call me when your done....oh well cant win em all...althought the idea of australias quickest n/a ka sounds pretty good...what sorta times would we be lookin at chris?
and how long would it take thru R&D for the headers..?
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Short answer, no.
But you can do:
3" flex pipe
3" highflow cat
3" piping from cat to rear muffler
This is assuming that you have / are going to do headwork / cam.
Otherwise for a stock head:
2.5" flex pipe
2.5" highflow cat
2.5" piping from cat to rear muffler
Both these systems should use mandrel bends for max flow.
so therfore, if i already have the ported and polished head and r4 cam, i should expect to see greater results from a 3" cat back compared to my current 2.25"
or would i need to get the full exhaust rather than jsut cat back?
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Correct LC, and you would need the full exhaust (from headers back).
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which one? 3", possibly $600 including cat, 2.5" i'd say about $500-550 with cat.
well in that case if i could get a full exhaust for that price i would but considering i was quoted $750 for just the flex pipe and cat in 2.25" piping i dont think i will get anything for less than $1200.
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That was a rough guess, exhaust prices vary fairly substantially depending on who you speak with.
These are the prices i'd expect to pay for the main parts:
- highflow stainless barrel cat (like i organized in that group buy) $350 off ebay / another forum
- 3" flex pipe $70 (?)
- pipe work and install with mandrel bends $400-500
I guess i end up underestimating prices since i can do the pipework and install myself.
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Also, the issue is with decent headers that will make power, is that it is dependant on what cam you run. That is the crucial factor to determine how well they will work and where they will make power.
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so in other words not worth the investment of time and money into it for a stock cam and maybe not even the r4? you would probably need the r5 billet cam with more head work??
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I'd have to get the specifics from noss regarding the R4 grind, but since it's 270/270 duration inlet/exhaust, it allows peak power to be made by 6000-6250 rpm from memory.
In other words it's definetly worth it for a cam that big (stock is 240/248 and peaks at about 5000-5500 then runs out of breath dramatically).
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wooow....i understand the basics...but...
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I'd have to get the specifics from noss regarding the R4 grind, but since it's 270/270 duration inlet/exhaust, it allows peak power to be made by 6000-6250 rpm from memory.
In other words it's definetly worth it for a cam that big (stock is 240/248 and peaks at about 5000-5500 then runs out of breath dramatically).
interesting..... ;D
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LC that head went very well with my 3" system, I'd definately get a set of good headers for it, I remember power from 3k all the way to redline (7200rpm) and it still wanted more!!
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I wouldn't rev an unprepared crank and hydraulic lifters to 7200rpm though.
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Does anyone know where the R5 peaks out? (Of course with Solid lifters and Forged pistons etc :P)
With the setup Adam mentioned, I reckon the R5 would pull really, really hard excepting the lumpy idle making it sound like a Hecktick EJ20.... ;D
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Not to step on noss's toes, but i'm unsure whether he's dealing much with Wade Cams anymore; if he isn't i may be able to provide a specific cam grind suited to my new headers so they compliment each other and make the best gains possible.
Back to the question though, r5 would probably peak at 6-6200rpm.
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Interesting man.
What kind of lift/duration would ideally be optimum? I know the R5 has crazy lift in it but is more lumpy (so I guess best left for those who don't mind your idle bobbing)
Once my car is fully operational again I was contemplating getting some work done and eventually getting a better cam/pistions/port and of course some of your solid lifters. ;)
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What kind of lift/duration would ideally be optimum?
I have to run the numbers in the engine sim package i use and try a few different combos.
Believe it or not, cams with around 270ish intake/exhaust duration don't idle lumpy in KA's, it's when you get above 285ish and over that it idles cranky.
Pringles has a huge duration cam in his ca20, around 300 for intake and exhaust, from what i've heard it doesn't like cold mornings but never stops pulling hard when you get on it.
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anyway i also got my 2 1/4catback apexi on today for$250 with 1 resonater couples of inches after cat and straight through to my fat chrome tip,no cannon shit,its sounds so much better and deeper seems to rev out alot harder and smoother, flat spot is nearly gone alot better response has improved and alot more spread out power definitly needed it anyway i was going to get a bigger cat and flexi and go 2.25 but the bloke said there was no need so i just agreed with him and now its sweet as,next is my springs and kit go the pinny. ;D ;D
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Grammar much?
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Believe it or not, cams with around 270ish intake/exhaust duration don't idle lumpy in KA's, it's when you get above 285ish and over that it idles cranky.
Urq's car idles poo... up/down/up/down
That has an aftermarket cam, not sure what duration.
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Urq's car idles poo... up/down/up/down
That has an aftermarket cam, not sure what duration.
You poo like that? You need to get that prarie dogging sh*t sorted mate :P
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If you want a lumpy idle lol just pull a vacuum line off haha, that is the jew alternative.
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Grammar much?
I left school 4 years ago and i never have to write in my job that much just sign stuff,so yer and plus whos pays attention maybe i should have now that i think of it, but it was school the best thing was lunch or metalwork thats it.
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lol, i can tell you didn't chase a higher level education...
heaps of people pay attention...but we're not here to discuss this. keep it on topic biatchhh
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wait.... 170 for lukeys? im about to be charged 400$ for them.... plus another 100$ to fit them!!!
and yes i would pay the extra 100$ for custom ones.... only if there awesome though
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I think 400 is abit steep...
I'd pay an extra 100-200 and design my own and get him to make them.