Author Topic: Wideband o2 sensors.  (Read 5646 times)

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Wideband o2 sensors.
« on: Feb 8, 2013, 12:56PM »
I've been looking into wideband o2 sensor systems, but I can't find much info on them. What are they actually used for ? What do they do that a normal o2 doesn't ? What builds are they used in ?

Edit::
more accurately measures your AFR in order for more precise tuning capability.

But what's the controller for ?
« Last Edit: Feb 8, 2013, 01:05PM by Pure_Sincerity »
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Offline squizz taylor

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #1 on: Feb 8, 2013, 02:53PM »
Simple explanation

Dependant on the the ECU and the type of wide band you have. In an AEM system like deviate's, it will be  able to control the air fuel mixture at all times with a very high accuracy, especially if you are adding boost or NOS.

A normal o2 sensor basically says rich or lean when the engine is in a steady state. The ECU then takes a bit of a guess of the fuel air mix.

Naturally it is a bit more involved, but that is an easy explanation.

Offline chr1S

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #2 on: Feb 9, 2013, 07:17AM »


This should help you understand, there is fuck all sensitivity to read the voltage of the AFR value anything away from 14.7:1
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Offline Nomad

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #3 on: Feb 12, 2013, 10:46AM »
Have a look at wbo2.com. Oz company and has some good explanations on how they work.

Offline SSS

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #4 on: Feb 13, 2013, 07:03AM »
Short explanation:

A wideband O2 system allows you to accurately measure air / fuel ratios of an engine. The actual sensor is installed in the exhaust, before the cat convertor.
Being able to accurately measure air / fuel ratios allows you to tune the fuel maps in the ecu.

So, for your application, you will want to shoot for no leaner than 12.0:1 air / fuel ratio at WOT / full engine load up to your rev limiter.

Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #5 on: Feb 13, 2013, 08:18AM »
Short explanation:

A wideband O2 system allows you to accurately measure air / fuel ratios of an engine. The actual sensor is installed in the exhaust, before the cat convertor.
Being able to accurately measure air / fuel ratios allows you to tune the fuel maps in the ecu.

So, for your application, you will want to shoot for no leaner than 12.0:1 air / fuel ratio at WOT / full engine load up to your rev limiter.

Sounds good, I have a o2 sensor bung just before my cat aswel. Should be a goer.
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Offline SSS

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #6 on: Feb 13, 2013, 09:13AM »
Typically in the case with most aftermarket ecus (megasquirt being case in point) can take the 0-5v linear output from a wideband o2 sensor, process that data, and automatically adjust the fuel maps to deliver fuelling based on an air / fuel ratio "target" table.

So, for example, you can set this target table in the MS ecu, say for the highest load column, to an air / fuel ratio of 12.0:1, do a full throttle run, and it will automatically tune the ecu to deliver these air / fuel ratios.

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #7 on: Feb 13, 2013, 09:51AM »
really that rich for n/a? how high is the compression of this motor again?

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #8 on: Feb 13, 2013, 10:12AM »
I think it was calculated at 11:1

Noss, you mentioned doing a wide brand tune on my car, does that mean you use your wideband o2 sensor to tune also than remove it after tuning is complete ?
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Offline SSS

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #9 on: Feb 13, 2013, 10:37AM »
really that rich for n/a? how high is the compression of this motor again?

It's fairly safe and will still make decent power. Leanest I would go is 12.8.

Offline noss

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #10 on: Feb 13, 2013, 02:30PM »
I think it was calculated at 11:1

Noss, you mentioned doing a wide brand tune on my car, does that mean you use your wideband o2 sensor to tune also than remove it after tuning is complete ?

yes, i have a sensor that can either go into the stock location or if its the wrong thread/too big to fit/whatever, i have a probe that can go in the tail pipe (like on my mini right now)

then yes, i take it with me when i leave.

if the ms2 has the option adam is talking about with filling out the tables to achieve the afr that you want, if i were you i would buy the wideband and hook it up to the ms2. far easier than tuning, anyone could do it.

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #11 on: Feb 13, 2013, 03:15PM »
yes, i have a sensor that can either go into the stock location or if its the wrong thread/too big to fit/whatever, i have a probe that can go in the tail pipe (like on my mini right now)

then yes, i take it with me when i leave.

if the ms2 has the option adam is talking about with filling out the tables to achieve the afr that you want, if i were you i would buy the wideband and hook it up to the ms2. far easier than tuning, anyone could do it.

That's cool, so either buy a wide ban for $200 and set the AFR myself or pay you $180 for a wide band tune ? Hmm I'll go and buy a wide band o2 ^_^ but could you help me or do the timing maps Noss ?
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #14 on: Feb 16, 2013, 07:27PM »
Ive got an Innovate MTX-L. Pain in the arse to calibrate, but other than that, goes good, the software talks to my nistune software out of the box.

I picked it up off an Ebay store for $189 Delivered

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #15 on: Feb 17, 2013, 07:36AM »
The AEM should be the go. It's a 4 wire design, but I'll onl need to use 2 (power an ground) the other 2 are for datalogging and I can't remember the other.

So these are a must to be in the exhaust before the cat ? After the headers ?
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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #16 on: Feb 17, 2013, 07:52AM »
Yes.

The sensor must go where it is receiving exhaust gas from all cylinders, not just one like a normal narrow band sensor does.

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #17 on: Feb 17, 2013, 08:25AM »
Yeah I figured. Any advice on where/how to run the wires from that far back from the car ?
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Offline chr1S

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #18 on: Feb 17, 2013, 03:50PM »
I found engines are much crisper in the low mid 13's at WOT.

12.8ish was "duller" - same power.
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Offline noss

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #19 on: Feb 17, 2013, 05:50PM »
i always tune n/a to 13.2-13.6, turbo/supercharged i aim for 12.2-12.5

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #20 on: Jun 22, 2013, 04:21PM »
Can a wideband setup be used with a stock ecu without the use of a second o2 ? 1 is power and 1 is earth which will get it all working and read on the gauge your AFR but can 1 of the other 2 wires be used as the signal to be sent back to the stock ecu ?

Or should I just run both a factory and AEM wideband o2 ? Obviously the wideband will just be getting read while tuning appropriately. To go with this, I have a HKS Fcon S piggy back ecu system if anyone wanted to know. I know with an AEM or megasquirt standalonea they have the data logging options.
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Offline Kranzy

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #21 on: Jun 22, 2013, 04:41PM »
Depends on the unit you have. My wideband has a narrowband output. So the narrowband goes to the ecu and I only need one sensor. You can't just send a signal from the wideband harness to the ecu as the values used are different to narrowband. Eg 1-5v wide to 0-1v narrow
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Offline chr1S

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #22 on: Jun 22, 2013, 08:44PM »
Fuck the GayKS off. Just buy a nistune.

Most WB units have narrowband output but it doesn't mean it's working 100%. Most cars/people don't notice but the "stoich" output of the wideband unit may not be at 2.5V, there is usually a voltage offset that needs to be applied so the ECU is correctly utilising the closed loop function efficiently.
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #23 on: Jun 22, 2013, 10:29PM »
Fuck the GayKS off. Just buy a nistune.

Most WB units have narrowband output but it doesn't mean it's working 100%. Most cars/people don't notice but the "stoich" output of the wideband unit may not be at 2.5V, there is usually a voltage offset that needs to be applied so the ECU is correctly utilising the closed loop function efficiently.

The HKS was cheap and it will do what I need it to do for now plus it has the option for a map sensor. Ill just run the 2 o2 sensors and use the wideband for tuning purposes.
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Offline chr1S

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #24 on: Jun 23, 2013, 11:58AM »
That ECU is the biggest scam in the world, it's locked to HKS dealers who have paid for the software rights to edit the maps. Who the hell would waste their time on owning that? If I had my own shop I would not pay for the rights to access an ECU that has half a chance of controlling a decent engine. It's a patch on a patch of a solution, with engine management, you are severely missing a nut or two in your head if you are relying on a third party system to control your engine.

Cut the crap, use something that someone, even yourself has access to that can control the ECU, for example a nistune. It's cheap for a reason
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #25 on: Jun 23, 2013, 01:20PM »
That ECU is the biggest scam in the world, it's locked to HKS dealers who have paid for the software rights to edit the maps. Who the hell would waste their time on owning that? If I had my own shop I would not pay for the rights to access an ECU that has half a chance of controlling a decent engine. It's a patch on a patch of a solution, with engine management, you are severely missing a nut or two in your head if you are relying on a third party system to control your engine.

Cut the crap, use something that someone, even yourself has access to that can control the ECU, for example a nistune. It's cheap for a reason

I paid $320 in total with tuning software and tuning cable so it can be re mapped by myself at home. Ill try it out, and if I don't like it or its just total shit, ill sell it off again. Someone will buy it. Plus I can get nistune with software and license at trade price now through a mate of mine, so won't be a big hassle if that ecu does turn to shit. But you do throw some good points around, like always.
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Offline chr1S

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #26 on: Jun 23, 2013, 02:14PM »
Is the software in English?
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #27 on: Jun 23, 2013, 03:10PM »
Japanese lol, but it came with a comparison thingy so you can read it in English.
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Offline SSS

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #28 on: Aug 20, 2014, 01:12PM »
Thread dig.
Who is currently using the Innovate MTX-L?
Avoid?
Or shut up and take my money?

Offline Kranzy

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #29 on: Aug 20, 2014, 01:25PM »
I'm using plx. Id happily purchase again.


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Offline noss

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #30 on: Aug 20, 2014, 02:39PM »
i'm also using PLX, but a lot of the aftermarket tuning solutions use Innovate. I chose PLX simply because I liked the gauges better.

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #31 on: Aug 20, 2014, 04:13PM »
I'm running a Techedge WBo2 setup, works great. Sensor just before cat (Approx 1 metre back from turbo as recommended), Bosch LSU-4.2 sensor with a 2C0B Controller and LA1 gauge display.

The whole setup runs independantly, the controller takes the wideband input, generates an emulated narrowband signal (0-1v for Nissan but it is completely configurable via laptop) which feeds into the ECU, the stock o2 sensor is simply disconnected and is now just an expensive plug (it was dead anyways :))

Compatible with Nissan Datascan for monitoring and logging too

Made this video when I installed it to compare o2 readings, stock (but as said, faulty) versus wideband.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAy29EX3F1c[/youtube]

(To skip driving, jump to 6min and 11min)

The techedge can output wideband signals as well so I imagine it would work well with aftermarket ECU's etc. And again, the outputs can be completely configured.

Though it's an old thread I note the OP's question which I don't think was ever properly answered, the O2 sensor has more wires for more things, such as heater control, temperature monitoring etc. The controller monitors and adjusts temperature (probably amongst other things) so it works optimally, as well as reading multiple signals to determine the actual o2 value. Such an accurate sensor is obviously more sophisticated hence requiring particular parameters to be true, and thus more electronics to drive it. Being a completely different sensor, and working differently, means you simply can't plug it in where an ECU is expecting a narrowband sensor, they're incompatible and it won't work.

Placement of the sensor can be important too, too close to the engine will make the sensor run too hot, too far can be too cold (meaning it sucks more power to stay hot) and result in laggier readings. Even where the sensor itself is installed can vary, most cars with narrowbands are as close to the engine as possible, immediately where all the exhaust ports collect, or immediately after the turbo (some engines like V6's may have multiple sensors), as close to the engine as possible. Such sensor placement may not be appropriate for a wideband and actually damage the unit, shorten their lifespan or deliver inaccurate readings. Again, more sophisticated = more fragile and sensitive a sensor.

Not that it matters posting this but whatever
« Last Edit: Aug 20, 2014, 04:57PM by Rake »

Offline SSS

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #32 on: Aug 20, 2014, 07:38PM »
I currently have a Tech Edge 2b0 with an LD02 display (which half the led segments are dead...), reason I asked about the MTX-L is that I kind of still plan on dumping the Tech Edge to the back of the cupboard for the MTX-L; I've only ever had problems with the NBsim output, never used the inputs or datalogging....and now, because racecar, still don't need them (will be doing it all through the new ecu eventually).

Cannot be fucked paying $140 for a new Tech Edge display when I can get the MTX-L shipped for $195....and they use the same 7057 bosch sensor.

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #33 on: Aug 21, 2014, 08:17AM »
That's another reason I moved to using the PLX from Tech Edge. I wanted a nice little gauge that could sit in my car and their gauges are obscenely expensive. PLX had a special on, the sensor in my Mini had died and it was actually cheaper to buy the whole PLX kit than it was to buy the OEM/aftermarket Mini sensor.

I think old mate that writes datascan has updated the software to work with the PLX narrowband simulation output as well, you have Kranzy to thank for that one.

Also, sweet post Mr. Rake.


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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #34 on: Sep 21, 2014, 08:57PM »
I'm using an older version of the Innovate gear (LC1 from memory) and have a recommended them to a few friends inc the model you listed, All have had no issues. Very versatile and reliable.
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Re: Wideband o2 sensors.
« Reply #35 on: Oct 8, 2014, 02:30AM »
plx have new Gen4 kit with Bosch lsu-4.9 sensors with a stack of awesome features. I have the gen 2, withe the comonly uses lsu 4.2 and am thinking about the change.
http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=WDBDSMAFR_DM6G4
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