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U13 Bluebird & Altima => maintenance issues => Topic started by: SSS on Jan 28, 2004, 08:10AM
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Anyone got any sites that list a how-to on changing the timing gear on the DE engine?
I might have to do my uncle's U13 cos he was quoted $2k to change it....i laughed and said parts will only cost him $400 if not less if i do it.
I've done all my timing gear on my E, i just need to know if the procedure is similar on the DE.
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does this help?
1) You will need a jack and a piece of wood to support your engine, and a metric set of wrenches/sockets. You may also want to get a new valve cover gasket, as your old one may need replacing. Also get some silicone sealant for your gasket and upper timing chain cover.
2) Take off your valve cover. Do this by removing all the bolts that hold it down as well as your plug wires and valve breather tube at the top right of the valve.
3) If you haven't done so yet, you can now remove your upper timing chain guide, which will be to the left of the engine under the valve cover you just removed. Take off the two screws that hold it, toss the guide to the side, and put those two screws back in.
4) No comes the fun part. Remove the black metal part that is to the left of the engine head. It should be held down by 3 bolts.
5) You need to move the alternator out of the way. Take off the metal part that holds the alternator to the head.
6) Loosen the pivot bolts of the alternator and move it out of the way ( to the front of the engine)
7) In the meantime, Take the belt that is on the alternator so you can get to the upper timing chaing cover bolts
8) Now get your jack and a small block of wood and place it under the oil pan and support the engine. Make sure not to lift the engine, as you won't be able to remove the engine mount and you will probably harm your other mounts
9) When the engine is supported on the jack, remove the engine mount. Also remove the cast iron motor mount plate, to which the engine mount was bolted to.
10) You should now be able to remove the 5 remaining bolts holding the upper timing chain cover off. It helps to unscrew the steering pump bolts that hold it to the strut tower. Don't remove it, just unsrew the bolts so that you can have more clearance. The 5 bolts are all farily hard to get to, but they are able to be removed with basic handtools
11) You will need to find a way to tap the upper timing chain cover off, since it will be held on with silicone sealant and hard to remove. It WILL come off. The cover is basically the left part of the head, and you will have a hard time noticing the separation from the cover and the head, but it's there if you look closely
12) After you get the cover off, remove the side guide on the right side of the chain assembly. It is also held by 2 bolts. Toss the guide and put the bolts back in place
13) Now replace everything in the same basic order, making sure to put new sealant around the upper timing chain cover for a tight seal and on your new valve cover gasket.
14) The noise should now be gone. Check for leaks and if you hear a loud squealing when you turn your steering wheel when you are done, adjust the bolt on your alternator that tightens the belt.
found on altimas.net faq
http://www.altimas.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71156&highlight=timing
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tanks! :D
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Sorry to dig up an old thread, thought it was worth mentioning that i've been quoted $550 to fit a new timing belt, seals, etc on my U13 Bluebird (KA24DE)...
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Nope. He may replace your timing belt for $550 ;) but i think that if you want decent and actual parts they alone from Nissan would cost about $350 and no mechanic will do that job for $200 by the way no timing belt on the u13 mate
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Nope. He may replace your timing belt for $550 ;) but i think that if you want decent and actual parts they alone from Nissan would cost about $350 and no mechanic will do that job for $200Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â by the way no timing belt on the u13 mate
My Bluebird is belt driven not chain driven, the owner of GoodYear Strathpine asked me if it was belt or chain driven to which I replied belt but i've heard of KA24DE being chain driven, so he got one of his mechanics to check who reported it was belt driven.
He said they'll need the car for two days when I want it done as its a bitch to do.
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????? I think you are confused. The engine did not suddenly change from chain to belt. KA24de is chain.
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If the mechanic said it was belt driven my advice would be: never go back there again! Yes the alternator is belt driven, but the Ka24de is and always has been chain!
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Can you take a pic of your engine bay specifically where the timing chain is?
I'll take one of mine tonight or tomorrow and we can compare.
Like you said, i've only heard of the KA24DE being chain driven but i've seen what I believe to be a timing belt and a mechanic has confirmed it. The RACQ report done on the car also claims it to have a 'drive belt.'
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If you want to take a pic of your engine do so but it will look exactly the same, unless somewhere along the line your car has had an engine change. Racq get things wrong. Believe me the ka24de is only chain driven mate. still dont believe me? take a look at SSS (dvsu12's) post half way down the thread ->
http://www.antrx.com/smf/index.php?topic=7117.15
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Also, quote from my manual (under Maintainence Instructions for Emission Control Systems (For Australia Only))...
"Replace timing belt
Replace the timing belt which drives the camshaft."
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there were U13s that had belts ( i think sr18? had one) but aussie got all Ka's and all Ka's had chains. I also fail to see how replacing the timing gear comes under emission contol systems. can you scan the page up?
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Sure mate, i'll take a pic of the page in my manual tonight and post it up here.
Do you have your manual handy? Page number is 8-11.
Sorry for this if you are correct (which you probably are), it's just confusing when people tell you one thing and other people tell you another.
I think the mechanic that checked if it was chain or belt driven may have gotten the alternator belt confused for a timing belt ???
That's the only thing I can think of.
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Can you take a pic of your engine bay specifically where the timing chain is?
I'll take one of mine tonight or tomorrow and we can compare.
Like you said, i've only heard of the KA24DE being chain driven but i've seen what I believe to be a timing belt and a mechanic has confirmed it.
You wont be able to see the timing chain in the engine bay without removing the rocker cover (although you can probably just see it if you look through the oil cap)
A mechanic told me that my car had a timing belt (KA24E) (after telling him all of the details), needless to say I never went near him again, funnily enough it was a RAC approved workshop.
The RACQ report done on the car also claims it to have a 'drive belt.'
Yes, of course your engine is going to have drive belts, but that doesn't always mean the timing belt, usually it's referring to the alternator/ water pump/ powersteering pump and air conditioning belts
:)
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OH yeah i just went out to my car and had a looksy. Â That is refering to the alternator drive belt. Â Please believe me. Â Your car is Chain driven. Â Hope i have helped. Â needless to say the mechanic didnt know what he was on about. Â
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Thanks TAS mate, that is exactly right.
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OH yeah i just went out to my car and had a looksy. Â That is refering to the alternator drive belt. Â Please believe me. Â Your car is Chain driven. Â Hope i have helped. Â needless to say the mechanic didnt know what he was on about. Â
Thanks mate, I believe you now :)
Sorry about that guys.
I'll be going back there next week so i'll ask the owner to check it himself and then if he still wants me to pay him $550 to replace the "timing belt."
How often should the timing chain be replaced?
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Well it should be replaced when it starts to make a rattling noise on start up and especially if you can hear it while driving. If the mechanic told meant $550 for the alternator drive belt to be replaced, tell him to piss off! And if he says timing belt again tell him the same thing. No problems
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Sometimes when I start it up I can hear a rattling noise which gets even louder when I put it in reverse. Haven't detected any rattling noises coming from the engine when driving though...
Doesn't happen all the time.
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Spoke to my step dad bout timing chains, he's pretty adamant that you should really never have to replace them on a standard passenger/family guy but if the car is used for racing, then yes.
He knows quite a bit about cars, raced them, worked with Ford to design a natural gas engine...
I've also read up on them on Nissans website and they specify there is no set replacement interval for timing chains.
Different people have different oppinions I guess...
On my car, I only get an occasional rattling on start up if the engine has been cold for quite awhile, no rattling while driving.
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Spoke to my step dad bout timing chains, he's pretty adamant that you should really never have to replace them on a standard passenger/family guy but if the car is used for racing, then yes.
The guy that i bought my bluey off said something along those lines too. Although I wasn't too sure if he was right or not and have no idea how much he knows about cars....
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Spoke to my step dad bout timing chains, he's pretty adamant that you should really never have to replace them on a standard passenger/family guy but if the car is used for racing, then yes.
He knows quite a bit about cars, raced them, worked with Ford to design a natural gas engine...
I've also read up on them on Nissans website and they specify there is no set replacement interval for timing chains.
I'm sorry but i must disagree. Replacing a timing chain is much less hastle then the thing snapping and you having to replace the engine. Just ask Jecks. His snapped and now he has to replace the engine. If it rattles when driving or your car is sitting on high kms it is best to replace it, or eventually expect to replace the engine.
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Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Zander (and I somewhat agree), it all depends how long you want your car to keep going for.
My step dad clocked up 250 000 miles (400 000km) and he never replaced the timing chain.
I've also heard of quite a few older generation Commodores going with a heap of KMs without a timing chain replacement (yeah, much different internals...).
I agree it is a good preventative practice to do...
Do Nissan even specify when/if it should be replaced?
It says nothing in my cars manual about it and on the Nissan site it basically just says they use a chain on the engine because it lasts longer than a belt and there is no set replacement interval.
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Nissan dont specify when to change them and because of this alot of people dont think that it is important. But when you can hear it when you are driving it is getting crucial. My brother (richtrx) changed his at 275 000 but his car has been driven on the highway alot. it just all depends on the car. As for old commodores they are pushrod
-> no timing chain.
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What about Holden V8s mate?
The VK V8 has a timing chain and it's a pushrod engine.
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What about Holden V8s mate?
The VK V8 has a timing chain and it's a pushrod engine.
Sorry again, but no commodore except the VL and the brand new V6 has ever had a timing chain. the VK V8 is pushrod, not ohc.
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Spoke to my step dad bout timing chains, he's pretty adamant that you should really never have to replace them on a standard passenger/family guy but if the car is used for racing, then yes.
He knows quite a bit about cars, raced them, worked with Ford to design a natural gas engine...
Your dad's right in most circumstances.
BUT, it's chain tensioner failure that you have to worry about, which causes the chain to fail by not tensioning it, so the chain goes slack and slaps around and then snaps. So if the tensioner is poorly designed (which in MY opinion the KA24E's is [not sure about the DE]) then it'll need replacing, and to do that you have to remove the chain, so it gets replaced at the same time.
My timing chain( @180,000kms) had stuff all wear on it, but the tensioner and guides were failing and if I let them get any worse the chain would have snapped.
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Tas: Cheers for the info.
If my stepdad is willing to help me out, we just may examine the chain/tensioner. Should be right though...
Zander: On another Motoring forum, a member used to own a VK V8 that he would maintain himself. According to him, his VK V8 has a timing chain.
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Well, I asked about timing chains on Commdores at a large Motoring forum...
On the 253/308/304, Buick 3800, Ecotech, LS1/1 they all use a timing chain to go from the crank to the cam.
On the Inline 6's 202, 182 etc have a gear from crank to cam
Just to add the VZ uses a Chain and the VL (rb30e/t) had a belt
WTF does he think turns the cam then?
One of the most popular mods to older V8's was a double row timing chain (helped em rev a bot more) and the stock ones stretch. Almost all engines have either a timing chain or a belt in some cases. You can also get gear driven cams but a lot more rare on V8's. Usually seen in I6's
So...there you go :)
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Most 6cyl Holdens have geared cams - not sure about the V6's but my best friend's dad has (and had) a 253 HZ and a 308 WB and BOTH WERE GEAR DRIVEN. Other's may have had chains, but the fact with these chains is that they aren't what we're talking about. They are that they are a lot shorter, do not need any secondary tensioning mechanism and do not tend to get a lot of wear on parts because of the fact the outer edges do not really contact anything. This is because the cam is situated practically right next to the crankshaft, this and the fact that are continually being soaked in oil from the crank journals. On OHC engines the chains are longer, so it becomes necessary to have a tensioning mechanism for them. This is what wears down on them in most cases.
Feel free to let your timing chain go if you or your dad don't feel that it needs to be replaced. Hopefully it won't eventually break or jump off on you, which will (at best) cause some damage to your engine. At worst it will snap or jump off and your valves will collide with your piston heads. This usually means bent or warped valves and often imprinted piston heads - it also opens a pandora's box of possible con-rod, gudgeon pin and crank damage. I wouldn't risk it.
I should also mention that startup timing chain noise is normal on KA24E's. Not 100% sure about DE's but I would not worry about it until it started rattling while driving. As Tas said, tensioner failure is the number 1 reason for timing chain problems on the KA24E. Either the leading guide wears down too much for the tensioner to be effective, or another problem is the ENGINE OIL GALLERIES GETTING BLOCKED. The tensioner is OIL PRESSURE FED and hence good clean oil is always good for this. Build up of sludge in your oil galleries will eventually clog them and cause the tensioner to only be held by its spring, which is only there to hold the chain in place during startup.
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yeah richs post pretty well covers everything. about the vks i assumed that all of them were gear driven but yeah there were some that had chains. my mistake, although as richard said, these are different. :D
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No worries mate, just so you know, OHV engines (pushrods) can be chain driven.
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Has anyone had any issues with a really noisy rattle in the U13s? I'm guessing its the timing chain rattling?
My U13 rattles heaps on start up and on idle but is quieter when the engines revved up a bit and can't be heard when driving. The timing chain has been replaced at 100,000 km (which i thought was the interval for changing timing chains) and it was apples for a while but from 140k up to now (157k) its developed this crazy rattle.
I'm guessing its not the timing chain being excessively worn as it should still have some life in it. I have been reading up on this problem as mentioned before, the tensioners wear down?
Nissan USA has put out a revised, full metal tension-side chain tensioner for the U13 KA24DE, as these tensioners wearing down excessively and causing a nasty rattle is apparently a pretty widespread problem. Just wondering if anyone else has come across the rattle, and found way to fix it without the 'joy' of changing the timing chain. Can only the tensioner be replaced and solve the problem? Has anyone heard of the new style chain tensioner in AUS?
In case anyone is wondering, the bluey has had its oil and oil filter changed every 5,000 Km since the chain was replaced at 100,000 km, so it should have no dramas with blocked galleries for the tensioner.
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Yes, my car had the same rattle that you describe.
I removed the upper and front timing chain guide and my car is now as quiet as a mouse.
If you scroll back up this thread, Noss has posted the full procedure for removing these guides (it's the 2nd post in the thread).
I'd be 95% sure that if you do this aswell, your rattle will be gone....
Dan.