Author Topic: New around here and with an interesting machine.....  (Read 6291 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
hey all. I'm pretty new around here (is that an understatement?)

Anyway, my old man has picked up a '93 D21 Navara 4x4 Dual cab powered by non-other than the KA24E.

130,000km and it runs pretty good. More than enough power and torque once you're moving, but the old 2.4 suffers a bit when you try and get the ute moving from standstill. Infact, it lacks torque low down to the point where my old man has decided that he needs a bit more power from it (particularly low down in the rev range)


First thing I'm going to do for him is to remove the stock intake system which has 2 filters and tiny little intake pipe. I'm going to attempt to retrofit either a Pulsar or late model Patrol or even try and squeeze in a huge cyclonic filter from an older GQ patrol.

Cold air intake is not required because I'll be installing a snorkel as soon as I find one in the wreckers. :)

Anyway as you can see I've got the intake under control.

Are there any larger TB's available to improve throttle response a bit?


It currently suffers a bit of old head chatter. I believe this is the lifters as it comes from around the top of #3. Hopefully some different oil will solve this issue.


Does anyone know what sort of improvements extractors make on these motors? Do the cam re-grinds and chips you guys sell here on the forums do anything for torque?

I probably havent placed this in the correct section, but i dont really see where else it can fit haha!

Cheers!

Offline Leopard-Man

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • Karma: +12/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • vg20det ftw
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #1 on: Aug 7, 2005, 06:07PM »
Sounds like and interesting machine, something different to say the least.  For information about extractor and chip gains, just use the search button and see what comes up.
I am a man More sinn'd against than sinning.

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #2 on: Aug 7, 2005, 06:09PM »
I have but they arent giving me the information I'm looking for.

All it talks about is power.

And i have NFI how similar the U12 KA24E is to the D21 KA24E either.

I was hoping we could have a collaboration of thoughts on the matter.  :P

Offline Leopard-Man

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • Karma: +12/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • vg20det ftw
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #3 on: Aug 7, 2005, 07:10PM »
I believe that the engines are pretty well the same other than the obvious navara is rwd.  Probably people such as Noss and Dvsu12 are the best people to talk to regarding the torque improvement of Cams and Chips but they are definitely not going to give you less torque.
I am a man More sinn'd against than sinning.

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #4 on: Aug 7, 2005, 07:52PM »
No no, I can see there are improvements but I'm just worried about where they are. I mean, you guys are in cars and you obviously like to rev them, and taking a high geared 4x4 ute past 5000rpm is kinda silly, if you know what I mean...

I'm just worried about how the change the torque characteristics of the engine (which arent too bad as they are, just slightly lacking IMO)

Offline RichTRX

  • sth. oz local moderator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3798
  • Karma: +38/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • May the 4's be with you.
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #5 on: Aug 8, 2005, 09:39AM »
The engine lacks torque down low due to what we term here as "the flat spot". This severely affects low down accelleration between 1500 and 2800 (although I believe it only officially runs from 2200-2800. Order a stage 3 chip from noss (or a stage 1 or stage 2 for that matter) and (providing you have the same ECU as the U12s) you should see a big reduction in this flat spot.

Welcome to the site anyway, and I'm sure you'll find a lot of helpful info. regarding your engine.
His: 2001 Audi S4 biturbo quattro 6sp, Nogaro Blue/black leather recaros, microsilver trim, bose 10sp, SSAC 2.5" twin turboback, RS4 rear sway, 25% tint

Hers: MY99.5 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro GP Edition AVANT 5-sp, phantom black, black leather buckets/walnut/sunroof, 2.5" D&T Turboback, K04-015, N75J, 710N DV

Bro driving: 1990 Nissan Pintara TRX 5sp Red, 16" Rozzis, Lukey 4-2-1 ext, 2.5" full exhaust, hi-flow cat, cone cai, stg 3 chip,  low Kings, GT Gas shocks, Urethane bushings, slotted front rotors, 398000k and still going strong; 0-100 in around 7.2-7.4 seconds

Offline Budgie

  • Dr. B Udgie - AWD FTW
  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 9411
  • Karma: +131/-33
  • Gender: Male
  • U12-U13
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #6 on: Aug 8, 2005, 11:01AM »
Ah the 4x4 KA24E :)

Rich is spot on about the 'flat spot'.  Once you have been in a KA24E engined car with the stock ECU chip, then a car running a stage two or three chip the differance low down is amazing.
dont piss me off with your pillarless shit captain snappy wrist

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #7 on: Aug 8, 2005, 11:41AM »
Wonderful gents.

I suppose now I just have to hunt down its ECU and compare  numbers to a U12 ECU.

If its not the same, I suppose I could try running it on a U12 ECU. Thats if my local wreckers have any U12's - can't remember if they did. Heh.

We'll see hey.

Cheers

Offline Carbon-goodness

  • On ya bike!
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma: +21/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • self confessed antrx cycling nut
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #8 on: Aug 8, 2005, 04:09PM »
dunno if extractors wil be the same, but as soon as i got extractors for my ka24e (TRX), i rekon the flat spot went bye-byes!
If somebody asks you, "can I ask you a question?" and you say, "no",  you're actually answering a question. Think about it....

Offline Leopard-Man

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
  • Karma: +12/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • vg20det ftw
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #9 on: Aug 8, 2005, 05:55PM »
The engine lacks torque down low due to what we term here as "the flat spot".

Ahh the old flat spot.  Not something i have to worry about  :D .  I would say if the extractors were not the same, there would be ones out there for it.
I am a man More sinn'd against than sinning.

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #10 on: Aug 8, 2005, 06:15PM »
Yeh well custom extractors won't be hard to make. infact there's a crapload of room for a turbo. lol


I reckon with a few mandrel bends and a good welder you could cook up some decent extractors using the stock cast mounts (just cut the original piping clean off...)

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #11 on: Aug 8, 2005, 10:45PM »
I'd say the RWD extractors would be totally different to the FWD extractors. The exhaust pipe heads along the side of the block in the RWD version, and the FWD extractors turn beneath the sump to head to the exhaust.
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #12 on: Aug 9, 2005, 10:57AM »
I'd say the RWD extractors would be totally different to the FWD extractors. The exhaust pipe heads along the side of the block in the RWD version, and the FWD extractors turn beneath the sump to head to the exhaust.
Took the words straight out of my mouth...


I found some extractors for it anyway. :) I'll do the exhaust for him when the existing one rusts its ass off (not too far away!).

You might be wondering, WTF a navara with a sports exhaust!?!? Haha, no way! Again I'll be scavanging parts off other cars. Probably some mufflers from a GU patrol.

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #13 on: Aug 9, 2005, 11:34AM »
That's about what I'm planning to do. I'll use some mufflers from a car with a much higher power output: more power requires more exhaust flow.

I'm thinking something like a V8/XR6T muffler off a Commodore or Falcon, or a V8 muff off a LandCruiser... I have to do some more research though.
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!

Offline Jecks

  • antrx.com pit crew
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 2983
  • Karma: +72/-10
  • Gender: Male
    • antrx.com
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #14 on: Aug 9, 2005, 12:37PM »
any chance of pictures??
I'm sick of my knob going all floppy and loose in my hand  :P 
I've been on probation for 21 years, can't make a decision without consulting the wife first  ::)

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #15 on: Aug 9, 2005, 01:03PM »
Jono - Re: the v8 landcruiser mufflers, I doubt you'll make one fit. They're huge and ugly.

The patrol mufflers are tiny but have huge pipe diameters though. :)

Jecks - Re: pics, I'll have pics for you in due time. Just got to find the freaking CAMERA first! :@

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #16 on: Aug 9, 2005, 01:06PM »
Jono - Re: the v8 landcruiser mufflers, I doubt you'll make one fit. They're huge and ugly.

The patrol mufflers are tiny but have huge pipe diameters though. :)

Hence the need for me to do more research  :)
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #17 on: Aug 9, 2005, 06:46PM »
mufflers from the turbo diesel varients would work admirably as well i'd imagine...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #18 on: Aug 10, 2005, 12:05AM »
I reckon with a few mandrel bends and a good welder you could cook up some decent extractors using the stock cast mounts (just cut the original piping clean off...)

It is not hard to get KA24 exhaust head flanges laser cut as opposed to doing it half-assed and having your welds fail between the original cast manifold and your new piping.

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #19 on: Aug 10, 2005, 12:33AM »
i dont know if anyone has said this earlier or not as i havent read thru all of this, but i can tune your navara ecu no problems. i might actually have a stock navara chip here. although did i read carby somewhere?

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #20 on: Aug 10, 2005, 12:39AM »
oh also dont know if anyone's mentioned it but ka24e are a big throttle, only larger ones you could get would be from a nissan v8 or otherwise look around for an xf falcon one and have it mated up.

um, oh yeh snorkel.. are you using the navara for offroad and trudging thru creeks? cause if you're not, dont use a snorkel, they're restrictive, flow poorly and in a bad place for air density, it sounds like you're after performance, if you are snorkels arent the way to go

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #21 on: Aug 10, 2005, 09:40AM »
i dont know if anyone has said this earlier or not as i havent read thru all of this, but i can tune your navara ecu no problems. i might actually have a stock navara chip here. although did i read carby somewhere?
Nope its not carby. I think the carby comment may have come from the stock air intake, which has a mini cyclonic (360deg airflow) filter directly over the TB. (ie; It is a filter designed especially for a carby as carbys like to breath air from all around them)

Thats awesome to hear that the rws ka24e ecu is pretty much the same as the u12 ecu.... Bloody nissan and their parts bin hey. :P


The snorkel will be one of those extras which will be installed. I've since had a look at the majority of snorkels around and they all are waaaay too small to be connected for road use. I'll still install one when i come across it at the wreckers, but I'll make sure I'm able to disconnect it and have a different air intake solution for normal road use.

If you havent figured, this navara is happening on the cheap. I have access to a mig welder and i kinda know how to use it, so I'll probably still play around with making my own extractors :P

Offline RichTRX

  • sth. oz local moderator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3798
  • Karma: +38/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • May the 4's be with you.
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #22 on: Aug 11, 2005, 10:53AM »
What defines extractors from simply being an equal length or mandrel bent exhaust manifold is that they are built with different pressure zones (effectively the pipe diameter increases to create a lower pressure zone in the larger section - this sucks the high pressure air from the engine into it - hence a vacuum or "scavenging" effect). You could do this yourself, but if you want it to work properly, you ideally need to factor equal length, increasing pipe diameter and mandrel bent pipes into one unit, although I've heard that mandrel bends don't do too much more than press bends.

The way noss is talking it sounds like the Navara ECU is actually different from the Pintara ECU - I wouldn't have expected it to be different but I'd probably take noss's word for it on this. Also I don't know if I'd try getting a Pintara ECU from the wreckers - I've heard they can be pretty pricey - up to $600 or more!

Hope this helps with making your own extractors - the main gist is that it's a lot more than just welding a bunch of pipes together :)
His: 2001 Audi S4 biturbo quattro 6sp, Nogaro Blue/black leather recaros, microsilver trim, bose 10sp, SSAC 2.5" twin turboback, RS4 rear sway, 25% tint

Hers: MY99.5 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro GP Edition AVANT 5-sp, phantom black, black leather buckets/walnut/sunroof, 2.5" D&T Turboback, K04-015, N75J, 710N DV

Bro driving: 1990 Nissan Pintara TRX 5sp Red, 16" Rozzis, Lukey 4-2-1 ext, 2.5" full exhaust, hi-flow cat, cone cai, stg 3 chip,  low Kings, GT Gas shocks, Urethane bushings, slotted front rotors, 398000k and still going strong; 0-100 in around 7.2-7.4 seconds

Offline Yom

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +6/-20
  • new kid on the block
Re: New around here and with an interesting machine.....
« Reply #23 on: Aug 11, 2005, 02:14PM »
Aware of that - been doing some more research and it seems the stock exhaust on them is rather good... MAy not be worth the money is what I'm reading at the moment...


ummm i am totally confused. from my reading point, noss says he can chip the navara ecu no problems...

I'm just taking a stab in the dark that the u12 ka24e ecu and d21 ka24e ecu are the same (or similar, probably with different fuel maps)