Author Topic: whats your opinion? the newly released 9/11 vid of the plane vs. the pentagon  (Read 14961 times)

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Offline SSS

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i see we've got an engineer or architect on our hands ;) .

mech engineer. ;D

It bewilders me (apart from cost) why they stray from using concrete for large buildings, afterall it's a static structure (so to speak) so weight shouldn't be a consideration apart from the footings of the building.

Offline nazstang

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mech engineer. ;D
i knew it!  yeah, i totally agree. i'm not sure what houses in AU are made of(please enlighten me), but the majority are wood here. newer industrial stuff is almost all metal, and the older stuff is a pretty impressive mix.  In Portugal the houses are made of concrete, reinforced with re-bar.  i totally love those houses, if i ever build myown home from scratch, i'll do it like that.  the older stuff is pure rock slabs, mortared, with a Huge pine centerbeam, and huge cornerstones. 
here's the last house i rebuilt with my uncle before he died.   circa 1876 home.

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Offline noss

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well i must say, i dont take this as seriously as some.. i'm more in the same boat as jono, its an interesting subject to ponder. i have no doubt that it has affected people in america, and in new york, more than anywhere in the world, i never said it was a hoax, i dont think anyone did.. a hoax and a conspiracy are two entirely different things.. regardless of who did it, lives are still going to be shattered, and this discussion means no disprespect to the deceased or people that have been affected by the event.

i'm sure everyone hears the news reports about how terrorists claim responsibility for attacks, bin laden actually put out a video saying he had nothing to do with the sept 11 attacks the day after they happened and expressed his sympathies for america.. it wasnt until america started chasing him that he started being nasty.. he was in america when the attacks happened, in hosipital hooked up to a dialysis (sp?) machine.. why would he want to make an attack while he was in america in hospital being helped by the american people?

anyway, let me give you this analogy..

say if i was to suggest that microsoft along with other companies involved in computer security programmed that bug that kept shutting down everyone's pc's a while back (cant remember its name), and they were to use that in an attempt to sell more firewall and anti virus software.. and use it to ultimately invade the privacy of the end user in an attempt to stop future things such as this.. for the point of the analogy forget they caught they guy that did it.. would you believe that cause you dont like microsoft? not saying you dont like them - but i have no doubts most would find that easier to believe than the 9/11 attacks being something other than what we're told.


basically, in the end, what interests me is, if everything is as simple as what we're being told, then why is a lot of evidence being held back? whats the point of it? there are conspiracy theories around, why not stamp them all out? why would eye witnesses change what they say they saw/heard? how could eye witnesses interviewed at the same time around different parts of the city have very similar stories, yet their recolection of the events be rubbished as 'conspricay theory rubbish'?

its all very strange, and i think having the view of it either was all terrorists or it was all the government is a little naive.. why couldnt it be say, 80% terrorists, and 20% very influential people in different parts of the world? much easier to keep it quiet if it was say, 5 people that know better than to ruin their career/life by opening their mouth, and the other 20 people are now dead/in jail/in hiding terrorists.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 02:28PM by noss »

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Offline noss

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um, in reply to the houses thing, older houses are made of hardwood fames, newer houses are made of pine or aluminium framing (i.e. the budget made houses in new estates) with the larger load bearing beams in steel i-beams, oh and obviously there are brick homes and ones of concrete blocks (the cement redered ones).

but there are a wide variety of houses here, but yeh, generally pine and aluminium.. we have a lot of extra stuff to cyclone proof homes, particularly in the northern states, lots of steel reinforcment, deep footings, large beams..

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Offline SSS

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lol i just pm'd him with a response basically along those lines :)

Offline noss

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Offline pedro666

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this has been a great read for all pov. as mentioned, there are a lot that occurrence/facts that just dont add up. its odd that America has a large military/weapons industry. it also has a need to justify and also 'test' the budget. it also is the worlds largest consumer of oil (coincidently theres a little bit of oil in these regions). whenever America seemingly finds its way into conflict, they are in, or about to enter a recession ("g guys we need to fire up our primary industry"). the other fact that i find odd is the level of propaganda that is used( compared that used in WWII in germany, even exceeding). its an interesting subject that has lots of pov's.
the words "race car" spelled backward still spell "race car"? 




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a quick history lesson :  US helped iraq a while ago(with $), iran was being hostile to them(they wanted the persian gulf).  iraq was 1 day away from invading big-time, but they put down arms.  in return iran attacked(with nominal success) so the iran - iraq war began.

another kistory lesson. the us backed afghanistan against the soviets too... whatever the us wants, it will do... oops! couple of decades later and the afghans are apparently attacking the us with the weapons it gave them all those years ago. unfortunately america brings most crap on itself...

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i see we've got an engineer or architect on our hands Wink . jackpot, the interior of the building was "non-skeletal" with the central core holding most the weight( in the middle), and the other load bearing walls being on the outside(which didn't hold much) , the stress was too much.  it collapsed right there, in the elevator shafts.  the concrete to steel ratio was like 4 to 6.  another building of it's stature should be atleast 6 to 4.  like you said, maybe it would still be standing right now

thats fine too... but what about WTC 7? it went straight down for no apparent reason.... wtf?!?

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basically, in the end, what interests me is, if everything is as simple as what we're being told, then why is a lot of evidence being held back? whats the point of it? there are conspiracy theories around, why not stamp them all out? why would eye witnesses change what they say they saw/heard? how could eye witnesses interviewed at the same time around different parts of the city have very similar stories, yet their recolection of the events be rubbished as 'conspricay theory rubbish'?

ping pong noss. no matter how many people say "oh it was terrorists and its so bad that it happened, it was this it was that", there are too many shortcomings and holes to accept the goverments 'explanation'.
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Offline Chadza

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I can't believe that some of you can believe so confidently that it was a hoax. We are in AUSTRALIA people, these events happeneed over 10,000km away. I do think that the people over in the US would be in a better position to comment on what actually happened.

naztang raised an interesting point about the people who ACTUALLY SAW THE AIRCRAFT HIT the WTC. How can how ever many thousands of people who were in downtown manhattan have not come out yet and said that it was a controlled explosion/missile/drone/military plane/pack of carnivorus midgets, that actualy brought down the building.

I think it is quite funny that in this day and age because of so many crap stories and reports in the media that when something massive and worldwide like this happens everyone automatically thinks its a hoax, and conspiracy theorists who have nothing better to do go into overdrive!!  ::)

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Offline eurisko

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Chadza, i dont think anyone said it was a hoax... and i dont think anyone can deny that a plane hit the WTC. People are questioning wether a plane hit the Pentagon... and if there was any assistance to the destruction of the WTC (ie pre-placed exposives)

I dont think explosives destroyed the wtc. It just seems like hard luck that the building was designed the way it was, and someone like bin-laden (who is a civil engineer mind you) exploited that weakness.

What noss says is right, its not one or the other, and ive never said it was just the US government. What I am saying tho, is that its real easy for the government to allow certain events to occur that are favourable to their policy.

Is it really that hard to turn a blind eye to evidence that shows a BinLaden will fly planes into the wtc? Considering the millions to be gained in a war in iraq, and the control by the Patriot act?

Conspiracy theorists go into overdrive when they smell a conspiracy. Plain and simple.

Think about the Report made by Condaleeza Rice and Colin Powel, given to the UN to prove that Saddam had WMD (weapons of mass destruction). Plagerised from a report written 3 years earlier, no evidence from the inspectors on the ground, and in the end proven, not just to be wrong, but a false report used to justify the illegal war.

Just answer this.


Where are the Weapons of mass destruction? Where are the nuclear bombs? The warehouses full of anthrax? Chemical, biologial stockpiles? Where?

No, wait.... the point for going into iraq was to free the poor people from this ruthless dictator. Yeah.... thats it....


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Offline Febrile

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Where are the Weapons of mass destruction? Where are the nuclear bombs? The warehouses full of anthrax? Chemical, biologial stockpiles? Where?

No, wait.... the point for going into iraq was to free the poor people from this ruthless dictator. Yeah.... thats it....

IMHO, I think that the administration made the choice to go to Iraq because it would be profitable.  I mean, the rational individual does not invest in a project which they predict will cause them a loss, and we can extend this to nations.  I don't think anyone is going to deny the fact that the US saw Saddam as a real thorn in the side, and an unpredictable one at that.  Nor would I think anyone would deny that the US will now be much more comfortable with it's capacity to acquire oil from Iraq.  And, as has been said, the defense industries will certainly have done well from the outing.  So overall, in planning to go to war there, the administration saw the outcome as a gain, from a net perspective.

That being the case, I don't really think any justification is/was necessary on the part of the US.  Undeniably, the US is the most powerful nation/force of humanity that currently exists.  Who is to judge the actions of such an entity?  At no time in human history has the most powerful group not done what it liked, simply because it might not be in the best interests of others, and I don't see why we should ever expect that to change, until we change fundamentally as human beings.

Nowadays, we may have pretenses like the United Nations and such, but it does nothing to change where the balance of power really lies, only the opinion of what is done with it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 09:28PM by Narxysus »
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Offline Jono

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Chess is a war game, the world doubly so.


And noss, not many houses are made of aluminium are they? I thought most were galvanised steel as it's cheaper.
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Offline chr1S

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Bin Laden is a FBI/CIA polished up coverup. I have a feeling america fine tuned his record to the way they want it, when the media hears something, they spread it, when u hear something first then the other, you refer to the first.. which is why people think it was a commercial plane that hit the WTC.

It wasn't.. I MUST find this show that was on, argh.

Adam, then WTF is with the perfectly timed explosions going off level by level as the building collapsed ? People heard it.. people saw it.. you can even see it on TV footage if you watch it in slow motion !

do yourself a favour, watch the plane hitting the building in slow motion too and take not of the pre-explosion...


With this pentagon proof being it NOT a plane.. i think america screwed themselves right up with that one.
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to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline eurisko

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So overall, in planning to go to war there, the administration saw the outcome as a gain, from a net perspective.

That being the case, I don't really think any justification is/was necessary on the part of the US.  Undeniably, the US is the most powerful nation/force of humanity that currently exists.  Who is to judge the actions of such an entity?  At no time in human history has the most powerful group not done what it liked, simply because it might not be in the best interests of others...

Are you actually listening to yourself? This is basically what you are saying.

Lets goto war, to make money.

Fair enough thousands of innocent civilians will die. Who cares tho, their nothing but a bunch of rag head camel f*ckers anyway.

Fair enough, thousands of american soliders will die. Who cares tho, they are mainly african americans, or inbred f*ckers from hicktown anway.

Fair enough, the very few people that will stand to gain are huge mulitnational corporations with no links to any soverign nation. Companies like shell, Dupont, General Motors.

Human lives vs Cash Money.

Innocent human lives vs Money for Businesses.

Yeah, i can see that America has the right to decide who lives and who dies. Because they can.

Its quite clear you have no real grasp of what happens in the real world. People use the word war so loosely its disgusting.

Wait untill you carry a child in your arms with its head blown open by a 5.56mm Nato round, or completely burned by the aftermath of a 500pound bomb and tell me that america has the right to do what it likes..... for private companies.


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They do not have the right to wage unneeded war on other countries, but does that stop them?
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No. But neither does complacency.

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Offline pedro666

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hot topic , great to see opions and not just excepting the shit."dont believe the hype"p.e.
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That being the case, I don't really think any justification is/was necessary on the part of the US.  Undeniably, the US is the most powerful nation/force of humanity that currently exists.  Who is to judge the actions of such an entity?  At no time in human history has the most powerful group not done what it liked, simply because it might not be in the best interests of others, and I don't see why we should ever expect that to change, until we change fundamentally as human beings.

who is to judge?! TO JUDGE?! regular people who dont have some fucked up agenda are to judge. regular american people. anybody. just because america is 'all mighty all poewrful all influential', does not give them any right to just do as it pleases. like you siad, the same thing has always happened thru out history... it wasnt right then and it sure as hell doesnt make it right now. fundamentally, human beings will never change. thats why its the responsibility of people from all walks of life to do something against tyranny like this. and tryranny is the perfect word because you defined it with your comment. people need to question things, and say, "no....... get FUCKED."  question these suspicious things... dont just let it go because you want to put all your faith in a government that has its' own obscene vested interests..... it makes me sick..........

deep breath! aaaand drink :)
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Offline [JET-20T]

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maybe george dubya is the....... something is holding me back from typing it... i get goosebumps at the thought...

nostrildamus predicted it in 1999.. theres a movie coming out about it soon... hmmmm...

maybe theres a twist in the story
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Offline nazstang

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another kistory lesson. the us backed afghanistan against the soviets too... whatever the us wants, it will do... oops! couple of decades later and the afghans are apparently attacking the us with the weapons it gave them all those years ago. unfortunately america brings most crap on itself...


you've hit that on the button. :) the US keeps helping other countries out there, and it seems like it blows up in their face every time. but with the afgan situation, they were being overtaken by communists, and at the end of the war, Afghanistan was a totally new country.  the taliban grew quick after the war tho(1996 took power), and all they were, were a group of warlords with alot of $$$ to back them. too bad the warlords had hate for western civilization.  fighting is still going on there, and by what i've heard, they are cleaning up pretty good, and are beginning to rebuild. my cousin just came back from there, and he compared it with iraq. he said the people are soooo happy to be free from the threat they had, they're excited to start over fresh.. in iraq, the people told my cousin that honestly, they don't trust anyone, not the US, not the UN, anyone.   who knows, maybe 10 years from now, Boznia or Croatia can be overtaken by terrorists and attack the US, you never know.

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thats fine too... but what about WTC 7? it went straight down for no apparent reason.... wtf?!?

same agenda there, but they had a failure in the lower end of the building(7th floor i think), and that was just asking for it with the fires, they had thousands of gallons of fuel in there :-\

i understand those who say "you must ask questions, you need to second guess", and i do, but there is a difference for looking at a situation and seeing if there is a problem, and trying
to find a problem.  consp. theorists are like anyother cult, they are just obsessed with finding alternate reasoning for everything. if you've ever taked with one, you hear it in there voice, the obsessive and compulsive thoughts boncing in their head..... it's like talking with a child with A.D.H.D.  :D
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Offline pedro666

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I missed that the first time round imaspy, "Who is to judge the most powerful entity in the world?"... Why shouldn't we judge said entity? IMO it's more reason to judge them. With great power comes great responsibility. It's a pity common sense isn't so common these days.


aargh I'm tired and probably talking utter crap so I'm off to bed ::)


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Offline imaspy

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you've hit that on the button. Smiley the US keeps helping other countries out there, and it seems like it blows up in their face every time. but with the afgan situation, they were being overtaken by communists,

sorry i didnt think i would need to point out that it was the reds that hit afghanistan... are you selectively forgetting about the cold war? if the soviets were involved, america was always going to be there to go against it. its hard to find any conflict america hasnt been involved in where it doesnt have its own vested interest in the aftermath or some other trait or asset of the supposed victim. i dont buy into the whole world police theory for america because they arent police. theyre simply trying to further their own nation - which is not essentially bad - but america sees no limits to what they should or could do to advance the country. america only gets involved in conflict where they stand to gain - therefor arent really polizia.
i dont think any of us can deny the presence of the ground troops; good on 'em for what they do. theyre just following orders. and yes, there have been plenty of past occasions where they have done good for a country or a people. however, its the high level management that should be tried. america (or the governments of past years at least) have created their own monster, the military industrial complex... even Eisenhower warned against it in his parting national address. MIC must always be fed because the entire economy depends on it. simple as that. no choice. therefore, any excuse will do to let the beast out, allow it to stretch its legs and feed it some more.
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Offline imaspy

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and we're officially off topic now

lol
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Offline Febrile

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Wow, I think you may have overreacted a bit to my post.  You should note that at no point did I assert that the US has the 'right' to wage war, nor that the war is 'right' in a moral sense.  What I was trying to drive at with my statements:

Quote from: Narxysus
I think that the administration made the choice to go to Iraq because it would be profitable
I'm not cheering on business and profits here, I'm stating the reason why I think the US administration would enter any war, regardless of international opinion: because the outcome would be beneficial for the US, and because they have the capacity, and power, to do so.

Quote from: Narxysus
Who is to judge the actions of such an entity?
And here I mean that it is an action in futility to judge the US.  They are the supreme power in the world; until that changes, it will, as a nation, always have a perogative to use that power to benefit itself, first and foremost. 

I think these outcomes are the case regardless of who in particular is in charge.  As long as they represent America, and as long as America is the greatest power in the world, those in charge will do anything that promises to be a net gain for the country.  Along these lines, it does not matter how many soldiers or innocent people die, so long as, on net, the denizens of the US stand to be better off.  This is simply how humans operate, and it would apply to whichever country was most powerful.

It may seem apathetic, but the average person does not and will never care about happenings which never affect them; so much the better if those things make that person better off.  If a person in Queensland loses $100 and it blows all the way to me in Perth, I am $100 better off.  I do not care that someone is worse off far away, and given the choice, I will not post it back.  A quote I recall from somewhere on this topic goes something like "tell a man thousands die in an earthquake on the other side of the world and he thinks it unfortunate; cut off that man's little finger and it is a tragedy".  I suppose that what I am getting at is that in the face of large, aggregate goals (such as national welfare), I think people are overvaluing the worth of a human life, as considered by that aggregate.
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Offline nazstang

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and we're officially off topic now

lol
:D

 yeah, your definitely right, we've always got self intrests at mind, but we're no different than any other country. lets say AU had issues with Pakistan, and Pakistan was invading India. I'm pretty sure AU would be backing India. you wouldn't want Pakistan to grow.

my overall view is, US is a very young nation(230 years old) with it's central source being business.  they've alway been the best at it(morals aside).  US is the first to get to many "milestones" and is always on the forefront and cutting edge.  Other countries(both gov. and people) often envy or hate it.  more often than not, those countries are the ones who hold themselves down, and just toss the blame.  you don't see england or japan going against America, and they have both been in very serious wars with the US.  

having both a European view and American view, i can see why the us is often loathed. to me, the view on the us is: they are cocky, arrogant, loud, selfish  country, that's always in a rush(i hate the busy lifestyle,  love the 2 hour Spanish Lunch break  :)). but living here, life is just life.  it's a great mesh of people from around the world who have a great sense of pride in all that they do.  i believe the govt. gives us a more "hardass" bad image, but all they are is a group of business men who unfortunately run this country(but the same goes for 9\10 countries now).   that being said, though they may be business men, only one thing comes before $$$ in this land, and that is pride for your family and your nation.  both contradict any ridiculous ideas of self inflicted wounds on our country.  economically, we've been in a whole for the past 4 years, we are finally emerging this year. 9\11 in simple terms FUCKED this country, but we were strong to get thru it.

it's very tough to see the world in it's current state, i am honestly worried about raising kids in this world.  even though i'm young, morals, responsabilities, and just the way of life has changed alot since i was younger.  i'm afraid if the world doesn't reach a general agreement, we are ALL fucked, and without a paddle, up shit's creek.
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Offline imaspy

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Wow, I think you may have overreacted a bit to my post. 

yeah, but as you explained stuff i think you can see how it was a little bit ambiguous :) no drama pig farmer
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Offline eurisko

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It may seem apathetic, but the average person does not and will never care about happenings which never affect them; so much the better if those things make that person better off. 

And thats the exact reasoning, selfishness, and arrogance that can lead to people strapping bombs to their chest, or flying planes into buildings.

You all know WHY people do such things, but you dont care.

Every single-minded american joe watching fox news seems quite content in saying these people just hate america for being free and prosperous (as mentioned a few posts before), as a way of relieveing oneself of responsability.

Blame the ignorant, radical thinking america hating terrorist. Its quite simple, isnt it?

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Offline Febrile

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And thats the exact reasoning, selfishness, and arrogance that can lead to people strapping bombs to their chest, or flying planes into buildings.

You all know WHY people do such things, but you dont care.

Every single-minded american joe watching fox news seems quite content in saying these people just hate america for being free and prosperous (as mentioned a few posts before), as a way of relieveing oneself of responsability.

Blame the ignorant, radical thinking america hating terrorist. Its quite simple, isnt it?

What are you trying to say here?  I wrote two replies, but then realised I didn't understand enough your point to post either.
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Offline noss

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i'm pretty sure that what he is trying to say is that there are terrorists in the world because they feel like the world in general is turning a blind eye towards them and their concerns.. if you read through his previous posts, you could probably piece together an example like so..

america comes into a country to 'liberate it of its opressors'

america actually makes things worse, said 'opressed citizens' have to flee to another country and seek asylum

they decide they're going to australia, they end up in a detention centre, they are now much worse off than before america (and others) stuck their noses in

they get angry, and decide (rationally or irrationally) that they're gonna fly a plane into a building

the act of terror occurs.. america (and other western countries) say that the reason the terrorists did what they did because 'they hate america - they hate the west - but we dont know why'

terrorists get shittier, keep blowing things up, and the cycle repeats.

so, in essence, even though you might think your (and others) apathetic attitude to the situation is not a big deal, it is the root of all the problems.


at least thats how i see this all coming together.


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