Author Topic: Manifold Example (Read 8207 times)

[JAZZIE] · « **on:** Sep 5, 2003, 03:03PM »

http://members.iinet.net.au/~jasminew85/Manifold/

thats a link to an example of what our manifolds that we fabricate look like..

this one was completed 1 week ago.. only just got pics back..

next manifold we are doing is one for mine for my turbo upgrade... when i get back from sydney (if i have any money left after i take my sister shopping.. HAH)

if your interested in one or more.. email me [email protected]

Antrx member special

(Doesnt matter what state you live in we can still do it, you guys just need to pay for your manifold and the shipping to get it over to you.)
KA24 manifolds for us to do it for you is $600 each
if 5 of you are interested then we can do them for $500 Each
(my car is the model for which its to be completed on to make sure it fits and works)

i rang up jap place over here they said they could do it for $1500 (i laughed and hung up)

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #1 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 03:10PM »

oh i forgot to mention.. we can adapt it to any turbo that you wish to run on your car...

such as that manifold we just did is for a T3 style turbo. It'll take a:

Garrett T3 and T28 (ball bearing or non ball bearing)
HKS or Garrett GT30, GT32, GT35 etc etc

Very very easy to make it take a GT20, GT25, GT28 and T25

Very easy to make it take an IHI (VF22, 23, 24), Trust T-series or Mitsubishi (TD04, TD05 or TD06) turbo also

Garrett T04 turbos will take a little extra work to fit, as will most Hitachi/Toyota turbos (CT12, CT20, CT26).

The actual turbo shown in that pic is a Garrett T28 ball bearing

aussie-gli · « **Reply #2 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 05:00PM »

is that mild or stainless??

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #3 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 05:45PM »

Mild

stainless manifolds are "all show" and will always crack much sooner than mild. They're really only good for extractors (no weight of turbo on it) and show cars or weekend cars that dont see much use.

Im sure we could do a pretty stainless manifold.. for over $1000 of course as the metal is so much more expensive and more difficult to work with.

noss · « **Reply #4 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 06:12PM »

hell yeah, the cost of stainless is ridiculous.

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #5 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 06:15PM »

indeedy

noss · « **Reply #6 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 06:17PM »

oh, and not to mention the gas to weld the stainless, bloody fortune.

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #7 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 06:18PM »

cannnnnnnnnttttttttt waaaaaaiiiiiiitttt for turbo power!!

SSS · « **Reply #8 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 08:12PM »

And you're doing this on a stock bottom end?
How thick is the tubing?

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #9 on:** Sep 5, 2003, 10:09PM »

yeh, the turbo we are puting on the TX3 is slightly larger than the stock one

3.8mm thick tubing

is that ok with u sir?

~

SSS · « **Reply #10 on:** Sep 6, 2003, 02:25PM »

No, i meant on the TRX.....you could run 10psi in the KA with a std block provided the tuning is right, but don't expect the pistons to last long.

Do you get your manifolds heat treated?

zac510 · « **Reply #11 on:** Sep 7, 2003, 12:41AM »

Cool, I'll be interested to see how you tackle the manifold - the KA24 head is a bit tricky with the 1&2 and 3&4 ports so close together. It's not impossible, but just perhaps a little more tricky

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #12 on:** Sep 7, 2003, 02:02AM »

we did my extractors

its not that difficult

jayjay · « **Reply #13 on:** Sep 7, 2003, 02:36AM »

have you checked clearance for the aircon or are you getting rid of that?
i think if you wanted to keep it you would prolly have to mount the turbo upside down
jayjay

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #14 on:** Sep 7, 2003, 03:00AM »

my aircon doesnt work neways

im sure we will figure sumfin

jayjay · « **Reply #15 on:** Sep 7, 2003, 04:32PM »

id wanna keep my aircon
specially in summer
hehehe
jayjay

SSS · « **Reply #16 on:** Sep 7, 2003, 08:35PM »

jayjay, i'm doing my manifold around the aircon, shouldn't be too hard. Just need to find a good place to run the dump pipe.

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #17 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 01:11PM »

quoted from an email to a friend with a TRX:

"keeping your air con is no problem at all. If I can do a manifold for that TX3 and keep the aircon, I can do it in the TRX which has twice as much room!

That TX3's new turbo/manifold was less than 10mm from hitting the block, radiator fan, aircon and engine mount, intake pipes ( in two spots) and radiator hose... but I still managed to make it fit nicely!"

jayjay · « **Reply #18 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 02:20PM »

yeah i like the idea , the only problem is the mild steel , if that flakes and goes into the turbo , bye bye
ta
jayjay

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #19 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 02:25PM »

if the job is dont properly you wont have to worry about that!

trust us on this one.. genie did our dump pipe/cat and they didnt clean it out.. and when we did the block there was filings in the cylinders.. NOT HAPPY!

now the block is stuffed, its cracked.. getting a new one this afternoon.. i think we are getting a TRD special one *shrugs* just want one that reliable! haha

but yes jay jay.. we make sure its not gonna hurt your turbo.. and as i have said to other pplz.. my car is the guinea pig to make sure it seals appropriately and runs nicely..

so for brief periods of doing jobs for you guys.. my car gets turboed! haha

when i get back from sydney im saving for a gearbox (manual) and a turbo and possibly a FWD sr20det *fingers crossed* if not its going on my baby!

ok ive finished blabbering

SSS · « **Reply #20 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 03:19PM »

Tell me if i'm wrong, but that "coating" on the TX3 manifold looks like black spray paint...

trxadelaide · « **Reply #21 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 03:46PM »

I have been weighing up my options , whether to go fast NA or Turbo my KA24e. I rekon im gona turbo it though, i will b interestd in one of those manifolds in the future, probably 6 months or sumtin like that. I gotta save up the cash first!!

what parts do I need and how much will they cost if i decide going turbo?? can u supply or do you know where to get all the crap I will need?I rekon ill get my mates secondhand turbo off of his SR20DET to stick on it.

Cheers big ears!!!!

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #22 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 04:08PM »

Quote from: sssgtr on Sep 8, 2003, 03:19PM

Tell me if i'm wrong, but that "coating" on the TX3 manifold looks like black spray paint...

its high temp paint, its not intended to be on there permanently its on there entirely to create even colouring after welding once the paint burns off

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #23 on:** Sep 8, 2003, 04:48PM »

if you are interested in turboing your ka24 the link below will tell you what is needed and what mods you may need to forfil:

http://www.antrx.com/yabb/index.php?board=16;action=display;threadid=1657

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #24 on:** Sep 10, 2003, 03:22PM »

http://members.iinet.net.au/~jasminew85/Turbos/

Link above is a pic of sum sweet turbos

gt25 is going on an s15
the gt35 and its buddy is going on a mk4 supra

jayjay · « **Reply #25 on:** Sep 10, 2003, 06:28PM »

quite the nice family of snails there
heheheh
jayjay

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #26 on:** Sep 10, 2003, 06:37PM »

yuhuh..

aussie-gli · « **Reply #27 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 01:02AM »

Quote from: DeViLsGaL on Sep 5, 2003, 05:45PM

Mild

stainless manifolds are "all show" and will always crack much sooner than mild. They're really only good for extractors (no weight of turbo on it) and show cars or weekend cars that dont see much use.

Im sure we could do a pretty stainless manifold.. for over $1000 of course as the metal is so much more expensive and more difficult to work with.

My mate had a manifold fabricated for his micra... when he went to the dude who's putting it in, he refused to fit it coz it was mild steel. He said that the heat causes the steel to flake, and as soon as that goes into ur turbo, it's farked... That's what the say about extractors too, they say it'll stuff ur cat converter...

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #28 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 01:08PM »

Let me see, how can I reply to this one.
test %1.. get an oxygen torch and heat a mild steel pipe to glowing bright orange. Bash it with a hammer until its completely mangled if you wish.. mild steel will not flake

What WILL flake is mild steel internally coated with ceramic. Or coated with some other rust prevention substances.. though the flakes caused by that are usually harmless and soft.

Evidence #1... Mitsubishi 3000GT.. due to cooling problems, the rear (hotter) turbo exhaust manifold is mild steel tubular from the factory!
Evidence #2... why not give some first hand experience.. my MR2's mild steel manifold. I have had the collector of this manifold glowing bright red.. with the turbo itself glowing also.. countless times. I have it off the car at the moment and I am more than willing to take photos of the inside of the manifold. no evidence of flaking at all.

Extractors! Ok.. probably 50% of all N/A cars out there come with mild steel headers or extractors from the factory. Take the cat off after 100,000kms.. you will not see flakes. many mild steel pipes are coated in aluminium to prevent rusting.. if these were used on extractors then I can forsee this thin layer flaking off.. for sure. Though I also forsee it to be harmless as it is so thin and would burn off into tiny particles before becoming a large solid flake.

Quite simply.. if your friend didnt put the manifold on simply cause it was mild steel, then he/she wasted a perfectly good manifold.

If the manifold were left openly in the rain with water getting INSIDE the runners for a long time.. it might flake due to corrosion.
if welds were not ground back correctly inside the runners... it will most definately flake.. that goes for mild and stainless aswell. I suspect this is the rumour which probably got a little out of hand by the time it reached this guy... so that he thinks mild steel will flake regardless.

I think the person who said that heat will cause all mild steel manifolds to flake should do a little more research.

And yes, my manifolds are internally ground.

Also, the chances of small metal flakes actually damaging the turbine of the turbo is not at all that high. Higher on the ceramic turbines for sure.. but even still, they're quite tough. I wouldnt go so far as to say 'as soon as it goes it, its farked'.

Especially hardened steel turbines as is found on virtually every aftermarket turbo, and some factory units. They will take a fair beating!

Perhaps its true that the steel could flake after a very long period of use.. but lets face it, no mild steel manifold will last forever.. they have a limited lifespan, much like a turbo. Quite simply Ive never seen evidence of this being true.. nor have I actually ever heard of anyone stating this theory before.

-Tristan

SSS · « **Reply #29 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 02:36PM »

All factory exhaust manifolds, especially on turbo cars, are cast iron; for ease of production and longevity/reliability.
You are forgetting the fact that at often 800+ deg C that exhaust gas is passing through the pipes at a ridiculous velocity and pressure; a minor surface flaw in the steel can cause a type of cavitation where the metal is slowly worn away; hence flaking of small particles.
Steam pipe is a different matter.
No one answered my question about if you heat treat your manifolds.
You must have a magical die grinder, how are you going to grind back the welds in the middle of a bend? Not many places here in oz do extrude honing, and even then it is expensive.

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #30 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 03:46PM »

ahh a critic!
No, not all factory exhaust manifolds are cast iron.
Eg.. many toyota 4cyls including some celicas, all SW20 MR2s.. come with factory mild steel extractors/headers.
the aforementioned 3000GT twin turbo has one cast manifold and one mild steel manifold (V6 twin turbo). Why? the mild steel manifold is placed at the rear turbo (east/west engine) as that area receives much less cooling... and cast manifolds would fail/crack/warp too quickly. yes - a mild steel manifold.. while not retaining as much heat energy as a chunky cast iron manifold for any given change in temperature... is actually more reliable under heat stress. And no, the rear manifold is not at all prone to failure on these cars.

I could list on but theres no point, and to be honest I dont really pay a lot of attention to which N/A cars have mild headers.
Most, yes. All, definately not!

I am -not- forgetting the fact that 800+ degree gas is passing through the pipes at high pressure and velocity. Which is exactly why I stated that an unground manifold with bits hanging off will most definately flake. Yes, I have a magical die grinder. With the right flexible extensions and cleverly shaped tips.. and sometimes a bit of manual filing, it is not difficult to ensure all surfaces are well ground. And with proper preparation of the steam bends and careful welding, the actual grinding necessary is very minimal. However, I do not go so far as to call it magical.. its just intelligent.

Whats more.. the manifold I have been running on the MR2 was created by another company. It is unground internally.. but is there any evidence of flaking, despite the excessive heat it has seen and the fact Im pushing 1.5bar of boost (= very hot and high pressure exhaust gas)? no. all edges are still rough and sharp.

is there any damage to my turbine? no.

No, I do not heat treat my manifolds. It is an innecessary cost. A well designed and welded manifold will last a long time.

My question. who does? and what makes you think heat treating a manifold is a good thing?

If someone wishes to heat treat one of my manifolds after buying it.. then they're welcome to. If someone wishes me to include it in an already bloody cheap $600 price, they can wake up now and stop dreaming.

Do you really even believe that a small amount of tiny metal flakes will actually damage a turbine?
Why is steam pipe a different matter?
And what are you suggesting? That I make my manifolds out of thin, crack prone stainless? Or set up a large iron casting factory? Oh I know! I'll invent a new metal! And I'll call it Trisobium. Designed specifically for exhaust manifolds.

Yes, I know, Mild steel isnt perfect.. but its the best option out there especially for those budget conscious modifiers. Do you disagree???

If you dont disagree .. then why the hell are you hassling me?
If you do disagree then please enlighten me! Im yet to hear what you think would be better.

I honestly have no idea whatsoever of why you are being so critial of my work.. and the materials I use.. you have yet to offer any suggestions in regards to what would be better... so please, get to the point.

-Tristan

noss · « **Reply #31 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 03:56PM »

guys if this carries on i'm going to have to lock this thread.

as for steam pipe, i think the point being made is that the edges are bevelled, therefor making it a piece of piss to weld up and there are none, or virtually no dags on the inside of the pipe when its done. although, then again, that may not have been the point being made as i only very quickly skimmed through the latest posts.

jasmine, if you are going to keep posting what tristian has to say, or if he is going to log in as you and post what he has to say, i'd rather he have his own user account as its confusing to a few people around here.

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #32 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 04:23PM »

i i Cap'n

no more posts from tris...

sorry for those who were confused...

flupstar · « **Reply #33 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 04:49PM »

Good afternoon all.
Tristan here, logging in as requested.

Lock the thread? I didnt even realise there was a flame war going on. Perhaps I better read it from the beginning cause Ive only received snippets in the email.

-Tristan

SSS · « **Reply #34 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 04:53PM »

Quote from: DeViLsGaL on Sep 11, 2003, 02:56PM

you say your cryogenically heat treating your manifolds?

you realise cryogenics is freezing?

how can you freeze heat something? virtually impossible!

cry·o·gen·ics ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-jnks)
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)
The production of low temperatures or the study of low-temperature phenomena.

Don't be a smartass, i know what cryogenics means. Did i say that was the method i would use to treat a manifold? No. I already know which form of heat treatment i will be using on MY manifolds. Will i be sharing it pubically? NO. You want to know what it is? Go and get a Mechanical engineering degree.
I have reasons for doing so, which i am not going to share with you.
Your ignorance is shown by stating that it is "virtually impossible to freeze heat something"; heat is defined as a form of energy transferred from one system to another.
And if i am not mistaken, freezing something that is a higher temperature than the freezing medium is transferring energy.
Steam pipe is a different matter as it is 7mm thick for schedule 12 piping, and well, is designed to carry high velocity superheated steam, which can get up to 1300deg C.
I know what i'd rather have.

noss · « **Reply #35 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 04:53PM »

i'd rather lock it before the shit hit the fan thats all.

flupstar · « **Reply #36 on:** Sep 11, 2003, 05:02PM »

ok.. continued..

yes noss, I think he was talking about steam bends.. and you're somewhat correct about the bevelled edge preventing most dags. 75% of my time when creating a manifold is actually spend machining the steam bends.. shaping the bevelled edge perfectly and ensuring the surface is 100% flat to minimise dags. but that doesnt entirely prevent them

something worth mentioning.. is that the welds are actually MUCH harder than the metal used in the steam pipe. For example, they take twice as long to grind away.. the metal is quite simply harder. The 'imperfections' are therefore also a lot less prone to flaking off compared to say... a bit of the actual steamp pipe, not filed off correctly or something.

Also, dags in stainless welding are generally a lot more of a problem as imperfections on the inside of the pipe caused by welding penetration are increased by many times.. due to the thin pipework necessary in stainless runners.

On another note.. I am trying to be civil in my discussions. I dont entirely appreciate the way that some people are coming across to me.

Some people ask questions, and I reply.. with as much technical backup as I can offer
However, some people come across to me as simply trying to beat me / my work down or discredit me... for no good reason.. and with no technical backup or improvement suggestions. I dont agree with that.

I will do my best to remain civil and speak entirely on a technical level.. and I hope others will give me the same treatment. If the shit does hit the fan.. it will not be my own doing.

-Tristan

[JAZZIE] · « **Reply #37 on:** Sep 12, 2003, 07:03PM »

http://members.iinet.net.au/~jasminew85/TX3/

Above is a link to where the boiz are upto on the tx3..

Ben the owner is driving it around atm.. as far as i am aware.. we are yet to make those arrows disappear and the pipes nice and smooth... and we are puting a bigger intercooler on it either this weekend or next...

We are after people who are serious about manifolds to contact us as we are about to start the first batch.. if anyone is interested PM either myself or "flupstar"

Thanks guys and gals,

Jazzie

Author Topic: Manifold Example (Read 8207 times)

trxadelaide

flupstar

flupstar