Do atheists need to know the bible?

[FalconGuy]

I was up in Brissy the other day and while in the motel whiling my time away I grabbed the old faithful Gideon from the draw.

Thats what I found very interesting Rich, as you have stated earlier in genesis there is eve and no others...then cain and able are born and then Cain kills Able is banished...still no mention of anyone and then his finds a wife from the (I think) Banished people or something similar?

Also, if you add up the generations betwee A&E first and last child (assuming each successive is child is born at the earliest age of possible conception ie~14) then Eve is something like 75 or 85 or something...Physically impossible for a female. Though not nessecarily a male.

Sorry I am being vauge here but I forget exact phrasings.



Cheers,
Brendan

[RichTRX]

Katie, I wasn't having a go at you, geez. I thought if you were going to nitpick, as you called it, you should at least know the facts. But by all means interpret what I said as you like. I don't care. For the record, I didn't know you were talking about Jacob and Esau.

I've read various interpretations of the point of Eve's age.

The only two logical conclusions I come up with personally are:

a) back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)
b) the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

The main interpretation held by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is that Adam and Eve were close to being perfect, and hence they should have lived forever but because they sinned, they didn't. They still did live a long time though, and if you look at the following chapters in the Genesis account you'll notice that many sons & daughters of Adam & Eve lived to similarly long times. In general, people got less & less perfect and hence lived shorter and shorter lives.

It certainly leaves a lot to be desired. There's no evidence of the lifespans of people "dropping off" progressively through the Genesis book and there's certainly no Biblical explanation for the way human beings are now living longer lives than ever. In fact it is somewhat in contrast to what the bible "prophesied".

It's ok to say we were all meant to live forever, but does anybody really believe that? How can we all live forever? The world is having enough difficulty supporting its current population of human beings, let alone the billions who have died in the past.

[thumbtack]

thats alright. i had a shit day the other day. sorry. i'll even overlook you calling me katie instead of rebecca...

[RichTRX]

oh sh!t... and all these years I thought you were called Katie...  sorry

[chr1S]

She aint katie smurf uleh ! haha

When i first saw this thread made, i avoided it, i read about 5 replies and didn't want to look at it, this topic has brought confusion to me ever since i changed schools and i can sit there hours on end thinking about different views..My previous school was a greek orthodox religion based, which is my religion, i then moved schools as entering high school and my group of mates are basically catholic, greek orthodox and aethiest. Although the ones that beleive arn't exactly as religious as i was/am. They havn't read the bible, been to churce in a very long time..

One lunch time at school, my mates asked me what im doing this sunday, and i had church to go to, they laughed at me and said why you going to that for ? I said it was part of my religion to follow and have faith (i think u don't NEED to go, just have faith and beleive). Then it became a decent conversation on each others thoughts, and me being the smarter one in science etc, i remembered all the theories of the universe, evolution etc..Then compared it with what i have read, and it twisted my brain and thoughts so much i took my cross off. At times i do beleive, at times i feel that it's just a never ending addiction of false belief.

As rich has said, it's not bad to have a sense of spiritual essence in you, i think it's healthy. but it's also healthy to have the mentality to control how you feel and what you do by making your own judgements, not off the bible. Also as rich said, how we don't see the oceans splitting, prophecies are no more ? (esp. on the 2nd coming), the 7 days theory with the sun.. All these things just really show how things are false. You can tell the bible was i spose dare to say this "made-up" by when jesus climbed the hill and could see all the cities, where earth was flat in theory by some ancient astronomers and physicsts (not aristotle, but some of his kind).

Religion and your thoughts really bring break out people's personlaities and in my eyes, Rich i aint seen a guy so down to earth mate, the way you treat your girlfriend is great. Personally i hate seeing thugs playing games with their girlfriends and other girls, it just makes my eyes burn. Only if there was more Rich's in the world ...

[eurisko]

...back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)...
the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

There's no evidence of the lifespans of people "dropping off" progressively through the Genesis book and there's certainly no Biblical explanation for the way human beings are now living longer lives than ever.

Its very very clear in Genesis the life span was steadily declining. For example...

“Kenan lived on for seventy years. Then he became father to
Mahalalel. And after his fathering Mahalale,l Kenan continued to live
eight hundred and forty years. Meanwhile he became father to sons and
daughters. So all the days of Kenan amounted to nine hundred and ten
years and he died. And Mahalalel lived on for sixty-five years. Then
he became father to Jared.” (Gen. 5:12-15)

Using passages like this, its easy to create a list of lifespans...

Adam 930
Seth 912
Enosh 905
Kenan 910
Mahalalel 895
Jared 962
Methuselah 969
Lamech 777
Noah 950
Shem 600
Arpachshad 438
Shelah 433
Eber 464
Peleg 239
Reu 239
Serug 230
Nahor 148
Terah 205
Abraham 175

The idea that they confused months with years, or Lunar Years with solar years is just plain wrong. Otherwise there will be 6 year old fathers running around in the Old Testament!

The idea for eternal life is very simple genetics. It has been proven by experiments using fruit flys.

The basic premise for eternal life is the fact of how cells split. Cells split by making a copy of the DNA strand, then halving the cell body, hence replicating the cell. But, this happens Billions of times, and the same thing happens when u make a photocopy of a photocopy, of a photocopy... It eventually degenerates. This is how we age. Cells arent perfect anymore, and lead to imperfect copies which then lead to breakdown in the cells.

The experiments in fruit flys has lead to an interesting discovery. By breeding fruit flys, by only allowing the ones with the highest life span to breed, led to the discovery that by this selective breeding allowed the flys to live from a life span of 3-5 days, to 2 weeks!! An increase of more than 150% If this was done to humans, the average span will be 175 years!!
This allowed scientists to find the cause of this degeneration in the human cells. In the human DNA strand, there is a kind of "fuse" similar to that of a bomb. Every time the cell replicates, this fuse shortens, untill eventually, the fuse runs out, and allows the DNA strand to breakdown. The longer the fuse, the longer we live. Scientists are in the process of figuring out how to stop this fuse from shortening. Find this out, and we will have eternal life.

Its funny tho, on another point. People who believe in the bible select which portions to take literally and those to take as "just a story". Taking the bible as a literal story leads to some serious contradictions. Taking it as a story, leads to the problem of that it is all fantasy...

[chr1S]

Cells split by making a copy of the DNA strand, then halving the cell body, hence replicating the cell.

Scienftific form, Mitosis .

All i can say is, LOL @ the ages....Sigh, I'd like to have a conversation with a priest one day, just to hear what he has to say.

[BoGAn]

The experiments in fruit flys has lead to an interesting discovery. By breeding fruit flys, by only allowing the ones with the highest life span to breed, led to the discovery that by this selective breeding allowed the flys to live from a life span of 3-5 days, to 2 weeks!! An increase of more than 150% If this was done to humans, the average span will be 175 years!!
This allowed scientists to find the cause of this degeneration in the human cells. In the human DNA strand, there is a kind of "fuse" similar to that of a bomb. Every time the cell replicates, this fuse shortens, untill eventually, the fuse runs out, and allows the DNA strand to breakdown. The longer the fuse, the longer we live. Scientists are in the process of figuring out how to stop this fuse from shortening. Find this out, and we will have eternal life.

Thats a very good explanation.

The fuses are called telomeres, theyre at the end of the cell's chromosomes. They shorten with each replication until the point where they are so short they inhibit the cell from further dividing. This is a safety mechanism which stops cells replicating too many times and thus accumulating many defects.

There is however already a way to stop the 'fuse' from shortening - cancers do it very well - using an enzyme called telomerase. It is normally present in stem cells, allowing them to be 'immortal', but not in normal cells. 80-90% of cancers have elevated telomerase levels. This enzyme allows the cancer cell to bypass normal regulatory mechanisms by repairing the fuse and continuing to divide, causing cancerous growth.

Theres no way in hell id advocate using telomerase as a way of repairing telomeres as a means to eternal life - the potential to introduce all kinds of tumors is too great. Theres a very fine balance between cell death and cancerous growth and the body usually does a good job of regulating this. However research will probably investigate this as a way of prolonging life

Its funny you brought this up Rich, cos theres a high likelyhood ill be working on telomerase inhibition as a novel cancer treatment next year

[STU84W]

i'm going to throw my hat in quickly, because i remember hearing this somewhere (possibly in a movie, so its not original content, but its good to think about).

Consider Mary for a moment.  She has her partner Joseph, who's the carpenter... he's gone a lot of the time, doing all sorts of carpenting related jobs.  so she gets very lonely...  she has an extra-marital affair, and upon discovering that she was pregnant, she knew that she would bring disgrace to her family, and be dishoned by joseph, and possibly the entire community.  for all intensive purposes, she would lose everything.  so what does she do?  she does something so controversial, so unheard of, that it was brilliant.

She claims she was impregnanted by god.

For all we know, Mary was simply a fantastic actor, and coupled with mass hysteria, and a need for the populous to believe and have faith in something, Jesus was born. 

Obviously this idea has a lot of If's and but's, and the argument has as many holes as swiss cheese... but if you consider it for a moment, it could be just that simple

[Jono]

Haha! Finally a sane explanation for the birth of modern christianity! 

I never thought of it that way, but now you mention it, it's so obvious!

[Febrile]

I don't believe in religion or any God, however, I do believe in the existence of higher forms of life.  I find it highly implausible that we are the most advanced (to use the term loosely) living creations in the universe.

You see, I believe in the existence of life which we humans, in our current capacity, can not percieve as life.  One problem with this idea is that the existence of such life can neither be confirmed nor denied - you can't say it doesn't exist, because how can you if you cannot measure or recognise it?  Equally, we cannot prove it exists, because again, we cannot measure or recognise it.

As an example, I would be willing to argue that galaxies are life-forms, and we are mere parts of it.  Consider how atoms and quarks etc are a part of us - why should this not extend further than us?  Why should we assume that our definition of life is the only one?  Perhaps galaxies are sentient beings, but in some other understanding of the word that we do not have.

Thoughts?

[vector]

theres got to be somthing! think about it what was before the big bang? what was before that? and that? and that? im not saying theres a god, but i think its plausable heck anything is.

[NimrodNZ]

Man there are some deep thoughts going into this debate

Heres my two cents

People are scared of the unknown, they need something to explain the worlds mysteries.

And no aetheists don't need to know the Bible!
Do we Nissan drivers need to know how a Vtec works? � 


I like religion, it provides me with entertainment
Then I just go and drive my car

[Jono]

I would be willing to argue that galaxies are life-forms, and we are mere parts of it.

Now, THAT would make sense.

Have you ever realised that everything is made up of smaller parts, each resembling the whole? For example, a living cell is made up of a nucleus, cell wall and some other goop to fill up the gaps. Each part of that cell, the nucleus, cell wall and goop, is made up of atoms, each of them having a number of shells of electrons (equivalent to the cell wall and goop) and a central nucleus. Same basic structure, yes?

Now let's look at a larger level: the planet Earth. There is a crust and different layers of magma, and in the centre, a core of a different material, probably metal. Crust=cell wall, magma=goop, core=nucleus.

Bigger: the earth and the moon, The earth is the nucleus, moon the atoms of the atom.

Even bigger: the solar system, the sun is the nucleus of the atom, the planets are the tiny electrons orbiting the large nucleus.

And bigger still: the galaxy. One model of our galaxy has a black hole (immense mass) in the centre, resembling the nucleus of the atom, with star systems and planets orbiting at varying distances, closely resembling what an atom must look like.

Everything abides by that simple structure, large central nucleus, then heaps of tiny electrons scattered around it. For example, companies, corporations, cities, almost any aspect of society.

[RichTRX]

Its very very clear in Genesis the life span was steadily declining.

The idea that they confused months with years, or Lunar Years with solar years is just plain wrong. Otherwise there will be 6 year old fathers running around in the Old Testament!

Firstly, you took my post out of context -

Your quote of my post:

...back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)...
the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

My actual post:

The only two logical conclusions I come up with personally are:

a) back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)
b) the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

I never mentioned months at all, only that the years may simply have been shorter. There's just as much evidence suggesting that years were short as there was suggesting years were long - zilch. That's completely aside from the fact that both of those points were just my own ideas on what could have happened. I am also quite aware of the genetic "perfection" theory that you stated in your post involving the fruit fly - I was only referring to the fact, however, that the Bible offers no explanation for the way human beings are living longer and longer. I heard somewhere the other day that present day 20 year olds can expect to live well over 100 years. I don't know if I believe that, but it's an interesting concept.

Secondly, good work on gathering that list of people's ages from the Bible. I hadn't gotten that far in Genesis, but where I was at there didn't seem to be any significant trend. Still, it's good to see people getting out there and reading the Bible, if for nothing else to get a persepctive on what others believe.

In reality it's possible to make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. All you have to do is copy the various religious groups and take different verses out of context. If someone says to me: "this is proved in the bible at Genesis 3:7", I'd always read the whole of chapter 3, just to make sure they're not taking it out of context. It's amazing how much this happens. Living forever has been the fantasy of so many people out there it's not funny.

Sure, it'd be nice, maybe, but you have to look at the big picture. The world can't sustain people that live forever. Everything is the way it is for a reason.

[Dano Da Bomb]

You all shall burn in the fires in hell  !!!!!!!! The devil will feast on your soft jelly bit for eternity. Lol ( blackadder)