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U12 Bluebird, Pintara & Stanza => performance and handling => Topic started by: SSS on Dec 9, 2004, 07:48PM

Title: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 9, 2004, 07:48PM
Posting this for those that are interested on the progress i will be making on my ITB's for my KA24E, it's hopefully beginning  all on saturday with the purchasing of the actual ITB's.
If you don't know what ITB's are, don't post in here ;D seriously, feel free to ask questions as i don't expect many people to undertake such an extreme intake system mod.

I will post pics and tell everyone what the ITB's are from when i have them in my possession (hopefully) on saturday, otherwise i'll be reverting back to my 100% custom ITB's.

I'm very optimistic on what these will do for the KA once the ecu is reprogrammed to suit, i am expecting no less than 10kW at the wheels increase in peak power, mid range torque should go through the roof which is what really matters ;) and should be done for all under $500.
The cross sectional area for flow through these throttles increases approx 45% over the stock tb, backing my theory that the intake manifold on the E is its primary let down.

And yes, i am still going to turbo as well.  ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Rake on Dec 9, 2004, 07:58PM
Well I don't know what an ITB is, but from my acute powers of estimation it's the throttle body or part thereof?

Quote
mid range torque should go through the roof

I understood that quite clearly. And it sounds good! So, yes, carry on
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: weasel on Dec 9, 2004, 08:38PM
very nice SSS it will be great to see up and running
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pinsair on Dec 9, 2004, 08:41PM
Well I don't know what an ITB is, but from my acute powers of estimation it's the throttle body or part thereof?

Individual throttle bodies? as in the same as quad tb's? that'd be my guess anyway
good work sss
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: noss on Dec 9, 2004, 08:58PM
yeh thats what he means.. as you know i'm very keen to see your progress as well adam.

with a 45% inrease in cross sectional area i'd expect top end power to increase more than 10kw. although i guess we've both learnt our lesson about being optimistic with power. i'm guessing the main factor of these itb's that you're buying is that they keep the velocity of the air quite high which is what creates so much torque?
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 10, 2004, 08:36AM
ITB: Individual Throttle Body, same as quad tb's.

That's right noss, intake charge velocity is kept higher to promote more complete and faster cylinder filling; these should hopefully increase the Volumetric Efficiency (VE) of the engine, it's ability to breathe.

Just another note to mention that these are slightly smaller in diameter than what i was going to originally use, however driveability should be much better with these ones.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Jtas on Dec 10, 2004, 09:57AM
awesome stuff, can't wait to find out about the results :D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: FLOGTARA on Dec 10, 2004, 07:50PM
Coolies man.  Quad's sounds like a wicked move. What ya gunna do about a plenum chamber r are you just gunna run straight filters??

If you run filters you'll be runnin some hot engine air!

What size diameter are the thraots??

The induction note should sound fuckin awesome!!!

Pics plzz  8)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 11, 2004, 10:50AM
Picked them up this morning, they are from a `02 Suzuki GSXR 1000. I've already begun removing the secondary butterflies, only have to remove the shaft.
They're 42mm at the throat of the throttles, the inlet starts at 50mm and tapers down to 42mm.

A complete custom plenum is being fab'd up soon, i can't run these open even if i wanted to because the KA ecu does not utilize a MAP sensor. The plenum needs to withstand around 20+psi of boost too.  ;D


Oh, just as a side note, any melbournians looking for these, good luck, the only other wrecker i found in melbourne carrying them wanted $1k and would not separate the TPS/Injectors etc. I paid $200 for the itb's minus the electronics, if i wanted them he said they'd only cost me another hundred.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Budgie on Dec 11, 2004, 03:08PM
Crazy! This is gonna be one serious KA adam! :D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Rake on Dec 11, 2004, 11:42PM
Excuse my idiotism, but whats the diffrence of these over the stocker?

Would I be correct in assuming:

- Bigger, better designed plumbing for improved airflow (especially when used in forced induction setups)
- Are those 4 butteryfly valves? Does the stock TB only have one before all of the plumbing that goes to the cylinders?
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 12, 2004, 09:41AM
Excuse my idiotism, but whats the diffrence of these over the stocker?

Would I be correct in assuming:

- Bigger, better designed plumbing for improved airflow (especially when used in forced induction setups)
- Are those 4 butteryfly valves? Does the stock TB only have one before all of the plumbing that goes to the cylinders?

No idiotism here Rake, you're right about what you thought.
The stock tb is approx 62mm in diameter, each individual throttle plate in my ITB's is 42mm.
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the stock tb: .003m^2
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the ITB's: .0055m^2
So that's an increase in cross sectional area of approx 45%.
It's not necessarily considered "bigger" intake plumbing, just better; some people don't bother with ITB's in FI setups as they see no point, however i only see positives. ITB's are the only way to go for a hardcore NA engine fullstop.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Colby on Dec 12, 2004, 10:31AM
This is a super cool concept.  I'll be keen to see the outcome!
I would think that to have this effective you would need to upgrade the AFM to the Z32 ones. cos that seems to be the other major letdown on the KA

How bout the KA24de? possabilities of fitting ITB's to it?
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 12, 2004, 11:13AM
I would think that to have this effective you would need to upgrade the AFM to the Z32 ones. cos that seems to be the other major letdown on the KA
I have one in the garage waiting to go in ;D

Quote
How bout the KA24de? possabilities of fitting ITB's to it?
Of course it's possible. ANYTHING is possible. Just depends on how much fabrication you want to do. I am keeping my eyes open for a DE head too. :)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Milford on Dec 12, 2004, 02:16PM
i saw a SSS pulsar, with an SR20 run mid-high 13's at the track, NA, with a quad TB setup
definitely a good investment
and lets not forget the Quad TB GTI-R engine, a lovely piece of work
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Rake on Dec 12, 2004, 02:43PM
No idiotism here Rake, you're right about what you thought.
The stock tb is approx 62mm in diameter, each individual throttle plate in my ITB's is 42mm.
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the stock tb: .003m^2
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the ITB's: .0055m^2
So that's an increase in cross sectional area of approx 45%.
It's not necessarily considered "bigger" intake plumbing, just better; some people don't bother with ITB's in FI setups as they see no point, however i only see positives. ITB's are the only way to go for a hardcore NA engine fullstop.

Awesome :) I don't know much mechanics, but I'm just putting simple theory and common sense together.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: FLOGTARA on Dec 13, 2004, 08:23PM
They look good man.  Your also going to have to weld some interesting pipe's up to the throttle bodies as i am assuming there is no chance in hell they will line up with the stock inlet ports..... ::)

Fuckin good score tho  8) ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 14, 2004, 08:33AM
I've already begun cutting up my stock manifold to suit. May have pics tonite.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 14, 2004, 01:11PM
One observation is that the stock manifold looks to have very turbulent flow due to a number of factors, the main one being the swirl valves, which have been long removed.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Loop on Dec 15, 2004, 07:38AM
One observation is that the stock manifold looks to have very turbulent flow due to a number of factors, the main one being the swirl valves, which have been long removed.

I was under the impression that swirl valves were a good thing as they kept the atomised fuel in suspension due to higher velocity....
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 15, 2004, 08:37AM
No, they're only there to help intake velocity at low engine speed and at certain loads. I removed them because these ITB's *should* have significantly higher intake velocity and less turbulent laminar flow to offset the effect of removing them.

Testing with desktop dyno 2000 revealed that low to mid range torque jumps by quite a bit, from memory i believe it was something like 13.5 Nm over stock. But that is only an approximation and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Dec 16, 2004, 05:37PM
Still mucking around with the adapter plates and how everything will be secured/sealed, unfortunately they won't be in before mid jan as my laser cutting place is very busy.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jan 29, 2005, 09:23AM
Nothing new to report as of yet, although i have my set of 460cc secondary injectors i can start working on for a fuel rail.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: ZiiN on Feb 2, 2005, 10:12AM
SSS- im looking into getting this done for my car aswell (i dont have to do the fucking around cause of the aftermarket availablity for sr20 parts) but how does having the secondary injectors work? I understadn the principle as for me if im running low boost or off boost it uses the stock ones, and if im using high boost it would use the bigger ones... how doe u fit it all in? another bracket or? and the electrics?

Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Feb 2, 2005, 02:24PM
when on boost, all the injectors are activated, off boost only the stock ones are running.

Injector bungs are welded into the intake manifold further up from the stock points, mine will mount in the gsxr mounting holes. As far as electronics, my piggyback ecu will be mapped for this.
If you're going for a wolf or something like that, you'll have similar options to control such a setup.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Mar 28, 2005, 03:20PM
This project is at a stand still atm, mainly because i'm re-thinking the design of the runners and the plenum, plus trying to get the strut braces and CAI's done.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: bungs on Sep 20, 2005, 04:10AM
This project is at a stand still atm, mainly because i'm re-thinking the design of the runners and the plenum, plus trying to get the strut braces and CAI's done.

Anything new to report back? Screw the cai's and braces, focus on this hehe.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Sep 20, 2005, 08:44AM
Jesus, SSS...Your beating me !!!  >:(

 :P Hope it all works out bud, you seem like one fkn smart kid, did you do any kind of mechanical engineering at uni/tafe ?

All these post's ive seen have always been mechanical minded and it sounds like you know what the hell your on about, nice mate !
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Sep 20, 2005, 11:57AM
Jesus, SSS...Your beating me !!! >:(

 :P Hope it all works out bud, you seem like one fkn smart kid, did you do any kind of mechanical engineering at uni/tafe ?

All these post's ive seen have always been mechanical minded and it sounds like you know what the hell your on about, nice mate !

Thanks kyrios, i'm actually currently in the last semester of my mechanical engineering degree. I hope it works out too!

Bungs, unfortunately cos it is my last semester, and last semester was just as bad as this one, i haven't been able to do anything on them but get the material i need to cut the flanges out that will be welded to the severely cut down stock manifold. I have absolutely everything i need to do them, except a TIG to weld aluminium but i've got someone lined up to do that for me.
Basically i couldn't give 2 shits about those CAI's and STB's i was going to do, between these ITB's, the GT3040 and the TiAL 44mm wastegate both waiting for an exhaust manifold, i've got plenty on my hands.
In 6 weeks it'll be a different story timewise ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pingu on Sep 23, 2005, 01:10AM
Have you decided your runner length between the Tb's and the intake ports on the head? This would be something you would tune for your scenario i would think.

Stock tb ID is 60.0mm at the throttle plate, which is solid for a turbo setup, but your quad tb's have a collectivley huge area !
This is what i want to do too. Might be a bit rugged resorting the idle air sources since they will be behind the throttle etc...?

If i had an SR20 id spend a mere 200 on GTIR plenum and Tb's (no elecs) and put everything on it to suit from original bits. I dont know if the sr20det head from the GTIR is the same as all the others, maybe it all only bolts up on that particular pulsar gtir sr20 head.

Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: bungs on Sep 23, 2005, 01:57AM
Yeah I know first hand how time consuming uni is. Ah well, all in due time I suppose :)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Sep 23, 2005, 05:44PM
Have you decided your runner length between the Tb's and the intake ports on the head? This would be something you would tune for your scenario i would think.

Stock tb ID is 60.0mm at the throttle plate, which is solid for a turbo setup, but your quad tb's have a collectivley huge area !
This is what i want to do too. Might be a bit rugged resorting the idle air sources since they will be behind the throttle etc...?

If i had an SR20 id spend a mere 200 on GTIR plenum and Tb's (no elecs) and put everything on it to suit from original bits. I dont know if the sr20det head from the GTIR is the same as all the others, maybe it all only bolts up on that particular pulsar gtir sr20 head.



It was between 9-10" from memory.

I can tap in a fitting per runner to add to the fittings in the actual tbs that are already there, for either a vacuum source or idle control. the fittings that are there currently are after the throttle plates which is quite helpful.
I'm just going to be making adaptors to run the stock idle control valves, and mount them elsewhere in the engine bay via extended vac hoses.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pingu on Sep 23, 2005, 08:21PM
It was between 9-10" from memory.

I can tap in a fitting per runner to add to the fittings in the actual tbs that are already there, for either a vacuum source or idle control. the fittings that are there currently are after the throttle plates which is quite helpful.
I'm just going to be making adaptors to run the stock idle control valves, and mount them elsewhere in the engine bay via extended vac hoses.

Perfect. I want those ITB's now also :P
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: ka-t on Nov 9, 2005, 05:32PM
hey guys, just wondering if there are any updates on the construction of your ITB.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: fraz on Nov 11, 2005, 05:03AM

If i had an SR20 id spend a mere 200 on GTIR plenum and Tb's (no elecs) and put everything on it to suit from original bits. I dont know if the sr20det head from the GTIR is the same as all the others, maybe it all only bolts up on that particular pulsar gtir sr20 head.



Gti-r throttles wont fit non gti-r head, they have a different flange where it bolts to the head. I have seen then modified to fit a regular head, but i dont know how well it fitted.
Gti-r heads have the different intake flange, i think the dividers in the inlte ports extend closer to the manifold and they also have solid rocker pedestalls instead of hydraulic ones
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Nov 20, 2005, 01:04PM
This has taken a back seat atm whilst i get the exhaust manifolds done.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Cru1se_Missle on Nov 20, 2005, 01:25PM
however i only see positives. ITB's are the only way to go for a hardcore NA engine fullstop.


I agree with you 100% Adam
A mate of mine did a K20A (typeR engine) conversion into his civivc and also utilising ITBs and goodam did this thing go....
It pulled 11.5 down the 1/4 if im not mistaken.

Nevertheless, this engine ur building will be torque monster.
If only I knew how to do these type of mods.....
All the best with it Adam, looking forward to see the outcome.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: STU84W on Mar 28, 2006, 02:40PM
I know this is a revival of an old thread, but i saw a ka24e in hot 4s, and using a custom intake and quad throttle bodies pull 150hp, making it the Horsepower hero at summernats.  just thought people would like to know the power figures.

congrats to whoever that was, assumably they'd be from here
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Jecks on Mar 28, 2006, 02:49PM
which issue of hot4s was it from??
i want a copy...
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Mar 28, 2006, 04:50PM
Yeah, me too.

hmm.. i thought i was going to be the NA beast :P.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: STU84W on Mar 28, 2006, 05:33PM
its the one coming out this month... i love subscription.  best birthday present ever.

i know its someone from here, cos i'm damn sure i've seen the engine bay setup before.  red rocker cover, braided hoses, custom throttle body..

haha, yeah chris, i wanted to be an NA king as well.  oh dear
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Mar 28, 2006, 05:40PM
hey that sounds like my engine










 :P
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Mar 28, 2006, 05:54PM
Hmmm better get my ass into gear with my ITB setup, yes i know, i'm lazy.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Mar 30, 2006, 11:09AM
anyone able to put up a scan of that article? (Siltara?)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: STU84W on Mar 30, 2006, 12:34PM
not really an article, just a quick write up.  i'll get one up tonite when i get home
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Mar 30, 2006, 01:27PM
thanks :)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on May 17, 2006, 12:54PM
ok digging this up from the semi dead.

spaced out the itb's to line up with the intake ports on the KA head.
In the process of finalizing the new intake flange and connection flanges to bolt these ITB's up to the new intake manifold.
Buying -10 AN fuel rail to work with my 1000cc injectors that are going in with the new intake manifold.
from the same company i am buying this plenum extrusion to form the plenum for the ITB's:

(http://www.rossmachineracing.com/images/large/dplenumt.jpg)

and inside the plenum to connect the itb's to the actual plenum via silicon couplers will be 4 of these:

(http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/.merchant/2068/images/vs50-60.jpg)

they are welded to the plenum. the plenum will have a 3" inlet to accomodate for my 3" cold side IC piping.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on May 17, 2006, 01:07PM
Whilst i don't expect enormous top end gains with these itb's, i am expecting to see a large improvement in midrange torque which will be the most noticeable gain and the aim of installing these.

I will have gtech numbers for both before and after too.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on May 17, 2006, 04:32PM
hurry up  :P
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: pumbaplus on May 17, 2006, 07:29PM
hi dude, it takes big cohones to attempt this modd , so well done...
 
where abouts did you get the "trumpets" and plenum shape........ $$$$$

what are you doing to your box to survive this + turbo....??
\
why not go the twincam head?? / motor....? sounds like you want to go all out.
or is the 12valve head good for the numbers...
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on May 17, 2006, 09:17PM
adam likes the single cam :P. I dont think there is that much difference anyway...

and yes he has guts to do this..
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on May 17, 2006, 09:29PM
hi dude, it takes big cohones to attempt this modd , so well done...
 
where abouts did you get the "trumpets" and plenum shape........ $$$$$

what are you doing to your box to survive this + turbo....??
\
why not go the twincam head?? / motor....? sounds like you want to go all out.
or is the 12valve head good for the numbers...


velocity stacks will be from www.velocity-of-sound.com, plenum extrusion from www.rossmachineracing.com.
gearbox, i have a spare that will be rebuilt and all of its internals cryo treated for increased strength and wear resistance. it may get straight cut gears for 1st to 4th.

i was going to go dohc, but then it would have cost me about $2k including the purchase price of the head to build the head to how i want it.
i have 2 sohc heads, and i firmly believe that they are capable of pulling big numbers. some drag racers in puerto rico use the sohc as they are lighter than the dohc, rebello racing uses sohc KA's in their off road racing trucks which are pulling around the 300hp at the flywheel in NA form.
I did my own solid lifters for the sohc head (as well as noss's). When the bottom end is built, the engine will be good for around 7-7500rpm, if not 8000.

and yes he has guts to do this..

it's too late now mate, i've already got 50% of the parts and my forged pistons were ordered yesterday. ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: bungs on May 17, 2006, 10:49PM
adam likes the single cam :P. I dont think there is that much difference anyway...

single slammer ftw

hrmm wish i had forged goodness, 18psi daily would be nice :(
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on May 18, 2006, 12:55AM
yeah im going single slammer too.. with my spare engine im getting i have some plans.  :P
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on May 18, 2006, 08:36AM
single slammer ftw

hrmm wish i had forged goodness, 18psi daily would be nice :(

i still need to get some crower rods though, that i won't be able to get out of relatviely cheaper :(
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on May 18, 2006, 08:50AM
The plenum material, fuel rail, and connection flanges have all been ordered, now i just have to wait. I'll be ordering the velocity stacks after i have had the connection flanges lasercut.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on May 18, 2006, 08:21PM
what idea do you have planned for the plenum ?, Is it the same as in the picture ? How do you know it suits everything right ?

also, any chance of pictures ?
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on May 18, 2006, 09:55PM
Cos i'll make it suit. ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jun 6, 2006, 04:54PM
Small update:

Fuel rail and plenum extrusion arrived from the US last week, still waiting on the flanges i need laser cut; because the flanges haven't been cut, i don't want to order the velocity stacks in case i get the wrong size (looking at about $200 for 4 stacks).

Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: MAG86 on Jun 16, 2006, 01:37PM
where's this hot4s write-up thing anyway.... im sure im not the only one who is interested
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Jun 16, 2006, 05:08PM
there is no such thing mag. it's just a picture.

why is it always when metal needs to be cut or bent it takes friggin forever... noss would laugh if he reads this  :D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jun 26, 2006, 04:44PM
why is it always when metal needs to be cut or bent it takes friggin forever... noss would laugh if he reads this  :D

it just does. on the upside, i actually didn't pay a cent for the flanges i had laser cut!

it's taking a bit of time to get the model done for the intake flange that bolts to the head, i want it as spot on as possible, and due to it's length, printing a 1:1 paper version to match to the head ports is proving time consuming...it has to be done on 2 pages.

I'm not in any rush to get this finished (gee can't you tell?!) as i'm not turboing the block that's in the car atm, i just don't think it'll hold up.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Jun 28, 2006, 11:23PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFe6Dx55rc&search=itb

is it going to be like that? :P
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jun 29, 2006, 08:50AM
except with a plenum around them.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jul 14, 2006, 12:04PM
Velocity stacks are on their way, got em cheap too, $122 incl delivery for the 4 VS50-60's i ordered.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: thaivietg714 on Jul 19, 2006, 05:32PM
Quote from: pandas14
Just recently got this project running, so I might as well do a writeup.

Here goes.

Intake mani and TB's

First, get some 01' or higher Suzuki GSXR 1000 or 750 Throttle Bodies.

Then get an extra intake mani. 

Cut the runners off approximately 6" from the head flange. 

Go to Home Depot and get some rubber plumbing couplers.  They're about $5 a piece with clamps.

Clamp the Mani and TB's together to yield this...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top3.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/bottom1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt019.jpg)

And with the couplers trimmed down, and the velocity stacks on...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs005.jpg)

Now make 2 brackets that brace the TB's to the mani, for extra strength.

I used 3/4" by 3/16" steel.  You can find this at Home Depot.  Bolted one end to the TB's and the other slips under the mounting point for the PCV rail.  Make one per side.  Should look something like this...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt023.jpg)

Now make a bracket for the throttle cable to slip into.  I used 1 1/2" angle iron.  This can also be found at Home Depot.  Make it to bolt onto the mounting surface that the EGR used to sit on. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt017.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt018.jpg)

Get a SOHC throttle cable.  The DOHC one is wayyyy too long.  The SOHC cable is too long too, but better than the DOHC one.  The end of the Nissan throttle cable that slips onto the throttle wheel fits in the Suzuki throttle wheel perfectly.

get two air boxes from a 01' and up GSXR 750.  These have the shortest velocity stacks.  Each airbox has two short stacks, and two long ones.  Once you have 2 boxes, you will have two full sets of velocity stacks to help you achieve the best powerband down the road.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/stacks001.jpg)

That's it for the manifold part of things.

Now the fuel management.

I chose to use a MegaSquirt (MS) because of price, and because, well, I love DIY stuff as you can probably see.  haha

Get your board and bags of components all lined up like so...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt004.jpg)

Build the stimulator first.  This will help you learn how to make proper solder joints befor you start soldering the actual MS together.  The stimulator hooks up to Megasquirt and stimulates the MS such that it thinks it is running an engine.  What this does is allow you to make sure all of your MS is built and running correctly before trying to start the car with it.  It also allows you to download new codes to the CPU chip as you see fit, without having to have the MS in the car.  Very trick.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megastim005.jpg)

Follow the MegaManual at www.megasquirt.info (http://www.megasquirt.info) and you will end up with this...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/wheels2007.jpg)

Now build the pigtail for the wiring harness...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/harness001.jpg)

and here's a better pic of how many wires there are.  This is the entire engine harness.  Stock one gets removed completely.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/harness002.jpg)

that's basically it for the MS.

Now for the ignition setup.

I chose to run a distributorless system off of early 90's Ford Escorts.  This system uses a trigger wheel that is mounted to the crank pulley to fire the ignition instead of a gear driven distributor.  This has many advantages, the first of which being that it is more accurate than the stock distributor.  It also gives full control of the ignition timing.

from left to righ in the pic below, we have the EDIS module, the VR sensor (reads the trigger wheel on the crank pulley) and the Coil.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt015.jpg)

Here is a picture of the spark plug wires modified to fit down the spark plug holes in the valve cover.  the boot that connects to the plugs has about a 30 degree bend in them so I bent them back straight, and trimmed the boots until they slid down into the holes in the valve cover.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt014.jpg)

Next, you have to get a trigger wheel made.  I have a friend who is a CNC machinist, so he made one for me, as well as prepping the crank pulley for the wheel.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt024.jpg)

And the wheel fit onto the pulley looks like so...

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/itbs010.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/itbs008.jpg)

Now make a bracket to mount the VR sensor onto.  I put mine where the A/C compressor used to be.  just some more of the angle Iron used before, long enough to mount the sensor on, facing the crank pulley.

Next, make a block off plate for the hole that the distributor used to occupy.  I made mine big enough to mount the new coil to, as that is as far as the plug wires would reach.  Just simple 1/8" thick steel.  when finished it looks like this bolted to the engine, with the new coil mounted on it.

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs004.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs003.jpg)

On a side note, here is the stock KA24DE timing map I scaled down.  I have used it and it works great. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/stocktimingmap.jpg)

Putting it all together.

Now pull off your stock intake mani, and take out your engine harness.  You will no longer need either of these.  bolt the new mani onto the engine, it should look something like this...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs005.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs002.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs001.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs002.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs005.jpg)

You can also see in those pics the wiring harness was finished.  It's simply following the diagram, running each wire to each sensor.

the only things that were not on the diagrams were the tach signal, water temp gauge and the switched ignition power supply.  the Tach signal was cake, run a wire from the Clean Tach Out pin on the EDIS module to the Tach input on the back of the gauge cluster.  That's it.  Speedo will still work.  Run a wire from the second temp sensor in the intake mani to the coolant temp input on the back of the gauge cluster.  that's all for that.  And the B/R wire coming from the igntion switch on the steering column needs to be tapped into to get switched power to MS, and the ignition components.

 

However, the wiring diagram for the ignition is slightly off.  the polarity of the VR sensor wires is opposite than in the diagrams, so wire that up accordingly. 

I used the stock injectors for now, but I have some SR injectors lying around waiting to go in.  Stock injectors will be enough for now. 

for the brake booster, I used the stock PCV rail, and ran one line from its output to the brake booster.  Has worked great.  I also Tee'd a 1/4" vacuum line out of this line, on it's way to the booster, for the fuel pressure regulator.  Before doing any of this, I measured the vacuum in this line, and in the rest of the intake mani under all braking conditions, and the booster did not affect the vacuum in the engine.  This being so, it is safe, and fine to run the vacuum for the FPR from the brake booster vacuum line.

the TB's come from the factory with a vacuum line from each port Tee'd into one.  this is used for the map sensor.  Simply run a line from this to MS.  the MAP sensor is inside the MS box.

Then swap out the throttle cables, and hook the SOHC one up.

Finally, plug the EGR hole in your header.

If I recall correctly, this is about it for what I did on this whole project to get it running.  for the specifics of the MS building and whatnot, and the ignition specifics and diagrams, visit www.msefi.com (http://www.msefi.com) and www.megasquirt.info (http://www.megasquirt.info).

I specifically did not go into extensive detail in these areas because it is covered very well at those two sites.

So finally start it up and get it idling correctly.  Do this by adjusting the screw that adjusts how far open the throttle plates are at "closed" so it has an idle speed you like, and adjusting the fuel amount in the MS.  You can then get your own wideband to tune it, or take it to someone.  Wichever's clever. 

After tuning it, GO DRIVE IT!  Don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back too!

Please forgive me if I have forgotten anything, it is a very long project, there is so much to do. I may have left a few small details out, but this is the major stuff.

Driving impressions
I don't have it tuned very well yet, but I can tell you that throttle response is immediate.  The engine also revs up MUCH quicker.  It does not feel like the lunky old KA.  It's a whole new engine.  This definately made it come alive.  It is, of course MUCh louder also.  It no longer sounds like a KA.  Sounds way more pissed, like an engine with 2x the displacement.No dyno slips yet, but once I get one, I will be certain to post it up, as well as a video/soundclip.


this is from 240sx forums, its a write up, it was inspired from a ka24e wiht itb's

sorry if its too long
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jul 19, 2006, 06:00PM
Yeah, seen that before, he now has the itb's enclosed in a plenum similar to the extrusion i have and is turbo.

velocity-of-sound.com for teh win. ;D

(http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTI3NzQxODZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg)

(http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTI3NzQxNzZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg)


edit: oops, didn't link correctly to the first pic.

Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Jul 19, 2006, 07:16PM
nice nice, adam please get this done asap :D

and video's pics, sound + tech article please ! no more mr secret from you  ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: thaivietg714 on Jul 20, 2006, 04:47AM
this is gonna be a beast!

if he does this, his u12 will be the most respected to me...
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jul 20, 2006, 08:47AM
The taper from the top of the velocity stacks to the opening of the ITB's matches the taper from the opening of the ITB's to the outlet, which means these should flow very well and provide a huge jump in intake charge velocity = more torque = more power. ;D

best of all there is little to no porting work necessary to match the velocity stacks to the opening of the ITB's to provide less turbulence and more laminar flow.

chris, this thread is about as much of a tech article as you're going to get unfortunately, it's not something i can write up to give step by step instructions on how to do; i just don't have the time.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Colby on Jul 20, 2006, 02:23PM
Why is it that that write up makes it seem so much easier at first that i know it will be if I ever tried to do it?

Real eye opener though... maybe not as hard as originally thought  :-\  Specially for a bit of a hack job like that.  Adam, your stuff looks so much more pro than that!  all smoothe and sexy.
Glad to see its coming together.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jul 20, 2006, 02:30PM
I'm not a fan of the DIY setups that use rubber couplers to secure & seal the itb's to a cutdown stock manifold...just leaves too much chance of something leaking or fucking up on a MAF sensed ecu.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Oct 17, 2006, 10:51PM
The itb's at the moment are being respaced as i'm not happy with the alignment of them to the intake ports, i'm being very pedantic about this as near enough is not good enough in this case. the idea here is to achieve as straight a flow path as possible, hence less turbulence in the ports which kills VE. Several things need to be altered in this case as the groups of 2 tb's are being brought closer to each other, they are 4mm too far apart currently.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Oct 17, 2006, 11:03PM
which two itb's are being brought together ?
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: eurisko on Oct 17, 2006, 11:34PM
4mm is a pretty big error. Especially for ITB where laminar flow is whats being aimed for. Bad luck with the spacing.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Oct 18, 2006, 09:25AM
the centre spacing bringing together the 2 groups of tb's is easily changed, but the 4mm out spacing of the 2 tb's was how they came when i bought them.

it probably would have been fine had i been using the nismo cast manifold originally designed for side draught webers, but even that would have been a comprimise as the runners even on that manifold aren't straight.

chris, what i'm doing doesn't apply to you, as my manifold is a one off for my engine, no stock intake components are being re-used. everything is custom.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Oct 18, 2006, 03:51PM
ok adam...

i'll leave you to it...
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jan 18, 2007, 09:53AM
Update:

My (severely) cut down stock intake manifold is here at work with me about to get milled flat, i decided against making a new intake flange this time as the stock cut down manifold will work fine with little comprimise.

Once it's milled flat the ports will be thoroughly re-shaped to get flow as straight as possible into the head, then my hand-formed tapered round-oval adaptors will be welded on, along with the first set of flanges.
Everything will then be ported and cleaned up again.

One other little design change i am making will be replacing the coolant return pipes with AN fittings to allow FAR easier coolant line hook up / removal for anytime i may need to remove / install the manifold again.
The single hardest job with removing / installing the intake manifold is those lines, getting the hoses on so they don't leak is the world's biggest PITA. :(

This new intake manifold is one of the major items that has to go in before i can even think about bolting up a turbo, my 1000cc/min injectors need larger bosses than the stock injectors to allow them to fit. (they are the 14mm double o-ringed type)

I decided this ITB setup is going to be the trial setup, depending on how this manifold performs will determine how much time and effort i will put in down the track on a complete one-off custom ITB manifold.

Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Jan 18, 2007, 05:30PM
Quote
then my hand-formed tapered round-oval adaptors will be welded on, along with the first set of flanges.

so the runners from the itb's to the head are round correct ? (im assuming they are, you have the same itbs as me), so with this "adapter" does it taper down the circle to a round-oval ?

I just quite don't understand what you meant by adapters, i think im thinking right though.

Why don't you get a piece of aluminium watercut? I rang up a place and they quoted me $30 without drawing up the flange on cad, but i already have that anyway...A flat bar of aluminium shouldn't be too $$$ anyway hehe.

With the runners, im getting them crushed at a metalworker (I will ask for sand to be put in so i get a nice smooth crush/bend), So it will be a circle and then crushed to the oval (but im assuming i WILL need an adapter of some sort.) I wish our engines never had oval ports, sigh.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jan 18, 2007, 06:03PM
so the runners from the itb's to the head are round correct ? (im assuming they are, you have the same itbs as me), so with this "adapter" does it taper down the circle to a round-oval ?

I just quite don't understand what you meant by adapters, i think im thinking right though.

Why don't you get a piece of aluminium watercut? I rang up a place and they quoted me $30 without drawing up the flange on cad, but i already have that anyway...A flat bar of aluminium shouldn't be too $$$ anyway hehe.

With the runners, im getting them crushed at a metalworker (I will ask for sand to be put in so i get a nice smooth crush/bend), So it will be a circle and then crushed to the oval (but im assuming i WILL need an adapter of some sort.) I wish our engines never had oval ports, sigh.

yes, the runner adaptor changes the shape exiting the ITB's to oval shape to match the intake manifold ports.
It's basically just a 100mm section of 2mm thick tube crushed at one end, like you said. and good thinking with the sand packing idea...i'll have to try that. I'm doing mine at home. I was going to carve up a wooden form to make sure they are all the same, but it'll take too long.

I could have got the flange lasercut at work, but to tell you the truth i really couldn't be fucked! it would have been more fabrication that is unnecessary in my case.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Jun 8, 2007, 09:49AM
Thought i would provide an update since the performance section is clearly dead.

I've modelled most of the setup in solidworks to determine runner lengths and figure out what clearances i need to avoid interference with the clutch master cylinder.

(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7950/itblowernk7.jpg)

As you can see, as much as i wanted to have straight intake runners, it won't be possible with the clutch MC where it is.

And please don't ask for the actual model files, unless you are prepared to pay for them.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Jun 8, 2007, 10:21AM
excitement of the much much   ;D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Colby on Jul 23, 2007, 12:04AM
Well I was just bored and noticed a short vid on a ITB'd KA... clearly on a 240sx  Sounded pretty crazy!  Just a pitty we dont get to see it actually drive  :(
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Jul 23, 2007, 12:21PM
haha

so delayed  :D
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Colby on Jul 23, 2007, 12:48PM
oh i thought i put a link in there... clearly not  :-[  now i feel stupid.. i'll find it and put it up tonight... or just search youtube... "KA ITB"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfQ4eA626kM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfQ4eA626kM)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pingu on Aug 2, 2007, 02:56PM
Hey, just thought i'd mention a generic thing people should look at when doing an ITB project on a nissan.
The older 3 litre maxima's had a throttle body which consisted of two seperate (40 odd mm ID) throttle bodies inside a rectangle. They decided to do this so they could run the intake manifold over the top of the engine close to the bonnet.

* Two of these together, with the shaft connected makes a quick four.
*It also has the throttle body sensor mounts.
* Flanged faces

The whole thing has a flanged face on either side, so you could adapt it to other parts ( flanges to accomodate existing flanges on runners and the new flanges on the throttle bodies / or individual flanged pieces of tube to connect to other runners or what not with a hose joiner) without too much trouble. I'll take some pictures of a couple if i get a chance and post here.

Andy

Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Aug 2, 2007, 03:07PM
40mm is a tad small
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Colby on Aug 2, 2007, 04:35PM
Quote
The older 3 litre maxima's had a throttle body which consisted of two seperate (40 odd mm ID) throttle bodies inside a rectangle.
these would be adaptable on a standard KA plenum?  twin 40mm > single 54mm, but what is the diameter of the smallest section of it?
If they can be used in this fasion they would still make a reasonable upgrade.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Aug 2, 2007, 10:51PM
No chance they'd fit on the standard KA24 plenum,

A custom plenum would be better anyway, the stock intake on the KA24 is absolute ratshit.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Colby on Aug 2, 2007, 11:16PM
custom shit takes too much time and effort at the moment... we want new cheap bolt on mods!
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: chr1S on Aug 3, 2007, 09:26AM
meh,

problem these days, people want performance for cheap... won't happen unless it's mass produced shit.

you're talking ka24e here, a motor that is  bar far no where near popular or valued in many peoples eyes, everything needs to be done pure custom, which for the extra effort at the end of the day, it's far better.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Aug 3, 2007, 10:32AM
correct.

when i (eventually) get this ITB manifold done, i would be asking no less than $1500 to build another one, purely because of the development and labour that goes into it.

On the topic of twin tb's etc, i have a set of twin 52mm (IIRC) Cadillac Catera tb's that i managed to score through work, that i planned on adapting to a modified stock KA plenum, by way of a new flange section to allow the tb's to bolt up and increase the overall volume of the plenum by another 0.5L.

I can still do this and get it working flawlessly on the KA if someone wanted to buy it, but again, i'd be asking no less than $600 for the complete bolton assembly.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pingu on Aug 3, 2007, 01:23PM
these would be adaptable on a standard KA plenum?  twin 40mm > single 54mm, but what is the diameter of the smallest section of it?
If they can be used in this fasion they would still make a reasonable upgrade.

They are more like 43-45 ID at the minimum point.
I'm suggesting using two of these units 2 twin throttle rectangles, removing one of the unit's TPS, and one of the units throttle wheel, attaching these together is a piece of cake, you can use the joiner that sits between the ca18det butterfly twin sections, they are attached in a pair in the same way i'm proposing. You'd kill many birds with one stone with this cheap alternative. Clearly not quite as insane as this project but could be the go for someone adapting to a plenum and the usual bits still on the intake.

Once you see the picture you'll see how it can be adapted. In the case of the CA18DET it wouldn't be long at all. I sold my throttles despite wanting that setup due to the benefits not really being worth the effort at this point on a turbocharged vehicle. I'd really love to do a NA car some day like this. Maybe even a KA24DE you NEVER see those here in NZ!
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pingu on Aug 3, 2007, 01:26PM
Thought i would provide an update since the performance section is clearly dead.

I've modelled most of the setup in solidworks to determine runner lengths and figure out what clearances i need to avoid interference with the clutch master cylinder.

(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7950/itblowernk7.jpg)

As you can see, as much as i wanted to have straight intake runners, it won't be possible with the clutch MC where it is.

And please don't ask for the actual model files, unless you are prepared to pay for them.

So you are going to build a new runner section and flange to the motor itself?
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Aug 3, 2007, 01:32PM
I was, but i decided on cutting down a stock manifold for this first iteration & having the mounting flanges welded to that.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pingu on Aug 3, 2007, 07:31PM
I was, but i decided on cutting down a stock manifold for this first iteration & having the mounting flanges welded to that.

Definitley a good idea to prototype it that way than produce more than one... eek... custom intake flange and runners...
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pure_Sincerity on Oct 3, 2012, 01:16AM
THREAD DIGGING :D

I didn't know you were serious about having a set of these sitting around for years apon years, damn.

Good info, will help me abit :)
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Oct 3, 2012, 09:40AM
Yep, got everything to do them.

And by everything...
- cut down and milled flat standard intake manifold flange (as a base)
- 45mm GSXR tb's
- velocity stacks
- plenum extrusion
- laser cut flanges

I didn't have the ability to weld aluminium as i do now (still not sure about my whether my skill to weld aluminium exists or not...), I should probably really get it done.

My main concern still is that the number 1 runner will have too many sharp turns to avoid the brake mc / booster, therefore impeding flow.

I can a get around this by going to a floor mounted pedal box, but that is a little ways off yet.

My main focus is getting the turbo stuff on currently (yes...instant gratification).

I still want to do these moreso for response and torque production when off boost, for a NA application you need the compression and decent cams (none of this 2 exhaust cams shit...proper, long duration cams) which would cost me more money than i would like to spend.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pure_Sincerity on Oct 5, 2012, 09:49AM
Mine arrived in the post, so far I've just removed the secondary butterflies and removed the fuel rails and plugged the holes. I can't believe you paid $200 without sensors etc. I paid $105 for everything associated with it. So I can sell of the shit I don't need to some bike [language filter smackdown].

My stock manifold will be cut down and welded to make round ports the same as evl's thread. Using stock injector location with a set of 370cc injectors.

My k&n filters don't fit as unordered wrong ones so I'm in the  market of purchasing some v- stacks unless you want to get paid to machine me some :p
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: Pure_Sincerity on Nov 1, 2012, 03:40PM
What have you done or what can we do about the trotter position sensor Adam ? I have the stock on on the gsx manifold but no plug so I can't re wire.
Title: Re: ITB'd KA24E
Post by: SSS on Nov 1, 2012, 09:06PM
take a pic of the plug on the tps and post it up.