Author Topic: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?  (Read 32450 times)

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Offline HIRO

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DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« on: Jul 1, 2006, 07:56AM »
In an attempt to stop arguing in other threads on the subject, I have set up this here dedicated to the subject of Drifting.

In the past decade Drifting has become very popular, begining on the bendy mountain roads of Japan, this is now a sport that has become globle. RWD cars being the most dominent in this sport are often seen, were ocasionly FWD and 4WD cars have also (but very rarely) been known to take part in such a sport, mainly through the mountain roads of Japan were FWD and 4WD have an advantage in fast cornering.  The techniques of drifting in FWD's and 4WD differ from a RWD car, and this also requires the car (like a rwd) to be specialy set up (but in its own unique way) to enable drifting to its fullest.



Many people have argued about - if a FWD or even a 4WD are capable of Drifting, 4WD being a bit more accepted into the sport because of the R32 GTR Skylines etc using the Attesa drivline and Evolution Lancers (still being east west mount) with some drive to the rear - but still being more FWD.  There have been various Honda Civics set up for mountain drifting in Japan, as seen on the Japanese Animation series known as 'Initial-D' so why do people bag FWD cars when it comes to drifting. It has been seen and it is possible. Please state your opinions on the subject of drivlines in Drifting.
« Last Edit: Jul 3, 2006, 10:20PM by HIRO »
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

Offline HIRO

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #1 on: Jul 1, 2006, 08:05AM »
and you cant drift a fwd drive car.  its just not possible as theres no drive to the rear wheels.  you can get it sideways but its pretty boring to watch.  but im not bagging you champ just my honest opinion. 

I agree that watching the fwd drift may not be as fun to watch as the tyre smoking RWD's, but its sure fun to do. You don't get all the smoke coming from the rear like in the RWD were the weels keep spinning, but you can manage the front wheels to spin while you take the slide - this requires much practice. Sliding is drifting, its not about "drive" from the rear, its about getting your car sideways and keeping it that way through a corner, RWD or not, it doesnt matter. Most people just don't bother cos its harder and using the handbrake can be quite hectic at times. FWD Drifting is a prestige sport and requires the use of other skills such a the 'Break-Drift' and 'Handbreak method.' Then there is the 'Torque-steering methods' also the use of Speed-Drifting (timing and presition of entering a corner with the correct breaking and speed before entering a corner.) For drift comps, I would rather use my R31, but for mountain drifting and things like that were the roads are narrow, and especialy in the rain, I would use an FWD or 4WD anyday over a RWD.  I think both are good for different types of events, tracks, roads, terrain etc.

drifting isn't controlled oversteer guys....it's all to do with understeering.

Correct! 
« Last Edit: Jul 3, 2006, 09:37PM by HIRO »
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

Offline noss

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #2 on: Jul 1, 2006, 09:22AM »
the guys will probably punch me in the nose for posting this.. but fwd drifting is possible to an extent.. and no, i'm not talking retarted handbraking around corners. the way my car is setup it has a tendandcy to oversteer a little, but that doesnt mean i go out and drift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ATK11_VQm0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtB5Df6_PBQ&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ5kIejAu6E


i'm not in any way condoning/agreeing with fwd drift or drift on the street or whatever.. they're just some vids i found yesterday when looking for quad throttle b16a powered hondas

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Offline chr1S

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #3 on: Jul 1, 2006, 10:07AM »
j00 use the weight transfer to drift a fwd maenz !

it's possible... but meh, people say it's wannabe drifting because it all started out with FR layouts.
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Offline SSS

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #4 on: Jul 1, 2006, 10:51AM »
Going sideways for a few corners does not constitute real motorsport. Plain and simple.

Offline DeathPlaza

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #5 on: Jul 1, 2006, 10:55AM »
grip driving is cooler, unless you know how to actually cut time by drifting, which is practically impossible.   well actually, drifting is cooler, whereas grip driving makes more sense.  i want a car to drift in but i know that it would be a waste to try on the stanza or my civic, i think it would just lead to wearing out every bushing/ balljoint on the car in record time, as though my trailing arm bushings weren't already shot anyways.  i'de say unless you own a garage with lots of equipment drifting is gonna take up all your time, and you better have some deep pockets to afford blowing trannys and suspension components and maybe even your engine.  not that anyone ever said any kind of racing is cheap but drifting is basically making the car do everything it was designed not to do.  

imo i think there should be a completely different term for "ff drifting" which im sure people have already made up.  but since you dont use the same techniques to initiate the slide, it should be classified as something else. 
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Offline noss

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #6 on: Jul 1, 2006, 11:19AM »
imo i think there should be a completely different term for "ff drifting" which im sure people have already made up.  but since you dont use the same techniques to initiate the slide, it should be classified as something else. 

the guys here came up with the term 'poling' cause people run into poles when doing it.

i'm not a fan of drift, although i've been watching it a little bit lately.. you just cant compare rwd drift to the fwd equivelent, whatever that is.

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Offline DeathPlaza

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #7 on: Jul 1, 2006, 12:04PM »
the guys here came up with the term 'poling' cause people run into poles when doing it.

i'm not a fan of drift, although i've been watching it a little bit lately.. you just cant compare rwd drift to the fwd equivelent, whatever that is.

hmm i dont think anyone would want to aspire to be the greatest at "poling"  i think people might mistake that for something else  which could result in an unsavory reputation.  haardiharharhar
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Offline bogan_bob

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #8 on: Jul 1, 2006, 04:41PM »
FF can't drift in the conventional term, rather most of it is 'feigning', using the weight of the car to push the rear out. I know this is a technique used by FR drifters but they have a number of other techniques at their disposal (not only a handbrake) and have a more complete drift in all corners (i think anway).

Also, note that many of the normally 4WD cars used in drifting in the Drift Australia comp (there are a couple of WRXs, GTRs and now an EVO or 2) are converted to strictly RWD so not really 4WD drifters.

Also drift is not really directly comparable to grip racing and neither could you say rallying is. They are all motorsport but fit into different categories so stop whinging and bitching about how drifting sucks because it isn't like traditional tarmac racing because it isnt supposed to be (sorry i know no one has done this yet but im anticipating it  ;) )

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Offline Jtas

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #9 on: Jul 1, 2006, 05:35PM »
What about no wheel drifting?








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Offline Jono

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #10 on: Jul 1, 2006, 05:48PM »
but since you dont use the same techniques to initiate the slide, it should be classified as something else. 

Most of the drifting techniques are the same, the only techniques you can't use in a FWD are power oversteer and locking up the rear wheels when downshifting.
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Offline Budgie

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #11 on: Jul 2, 2006, 05:13AM »
Drifting is a load of crap... full stop.

Try lapping a track as fast as possible in your car... thats 1000 times better than flipped the ass out on a few corners in a row, burning rubber and hammering your rear diff while doing so.
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Offline HIRO

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #12 on: Jul 2, 2006, 05:40AM »
i'm not in any way condoning/agreeing with fwd drift or drift on the street or whatever.. they're just some vids i found yesterday when looking for quad throttle b16a powered hondas

A point proven that FWD can drift. While some people may not like it, its somthing that I am pasionate about and I enjoy the times that I get the chance to practice it.
« Last Edit: Jul 2, 2006, 05:53AM by HIRO »
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #13 on: Jul 3, 2006, 12:22AM »
Drifting is a load of crap... full stop.

Try lapping a track as fast as possible in your car... thats 1000 times better than flipped the ass out on a few corners in a row, burning rubber and hammering your rear diff while doing so.

define the word "better" mate. I prefer 'grip' racing. but you can't say one is better than the other. apples and oranges.
a plus could be to run a drift event before a regular race... then the track would be nice and sticky around the corners.
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Offline bigpud2012

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #14 on: Jul 3, 2006, 01:05AM »
A point proven that FWD can drift. While some people may not like it, its somthing that I am pasionate about and I enjoy the times that I get the chance to practice it.


now HIRO is that a racing stripe or a drifting stripe on your baby blue machine?

ahah, u cant drift with a racing stripe u goon!

Offline Rake

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #15 on: Jul 3, 2006, 02:43AM »
I don't mind drifting.

It's not like anyone really can just get into a car, flick the wheel and pedals and have the car glide sideways through a corner and coming out fine despite all the noise and smoke. I imagine its a skill which requires practise, good coordination and rapid shuffling. And remember, the sport isn't necessarily just about speed/times, it's about control.

I wouldn't say drifting is new, it's only in recent times has it become popular. But you might see it in older TV shows or movies and stuff. It's always impressive when you see a car gracefully glide from one place to another in a seemingly impossible fashion, avoiding hitting people and stuff.

I reckon that bagging drift is a bit silly. It's like going into a restaurant and saying that the chef's food sucks. Now there may be some level of truth to it, but given that whoever is making such a comment probably has cooking skills so poor that they can burn water, and they're talking about someone who's experienced and does the job for a profession, well, who's in a position to be critical?

As for FWD/AWD drift, meh. I admit that you need RWD to drift effectivly. That's just the nature of the beast, so who cares. But I'll give admiration to those people in the civics because given the physical difficulty of a fwd car drifting, they seemed to do a good job of pulling it off.

As for going sideways being a stupid thing and not something that really holds any weight in other 'real' forms of motorsport, have a watch of this vid. This guy does some good countersteering to keep the car where it should be going instead of crashing into something, and just watch how he takes the hairpin at the end of the video. It might not necessarily or intentionally be drift, the way the car moves is kindof the same IMO. So to whoever laughs at drift, all I would like is to see yuo fucking try!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoh29SE24-k

Offline HIRO

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #16 on: Jul 3, 2006, 04:30AM »

now HIRO is that a racing stripe or a drifting stripe on your baby blue machine?

ahah, u cant drift with a racing stripe u goon!

lol.   ;D I just like the look of gt-stripes, if it be for racing or for drifting, its all good.  8) 
« Last Edit: Jul 3, 2006, 09:33PM by HIRO »
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #17 on: Jul 3, 2006, 04:32AM »
+1 Rake, a fine effort there and I certainly agree with you!

Drift as most people describe it is going sideways... That can be done in any car can't it?

and before everyone else goes ahead and criticises what drifting is because you think your a smart or whatever, go back to the people who have made this thing mainstream and have been doing it for ages - the japanese.
Watch the "Drift Bible" video with Keiichi Tsuchiya ("Drift King" essentially) and you might learn a bit more and learn not to criticise it so much :)

also, all the Best Motoring videos are awesome for drifting + grip racing, and the option dvds do a lot of justice to all motorsport.

Offline HIRO

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #18 on: Jul 3, 2006, 04:40AM »
Watch the "Drift Bible" video with Keiichi Tsuchiya ("Drift King" essentially) and you might learn a bit more and learn not to criticise it so much :)

Indeed.
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #19 on: Jul 3, 2006, 08:17PM »
I get your point here rake, but you haven't really thought it through properly...
I reckon that bagging drift is a bit silly. It's like going into a restaurant and saying that the chef's food sucks. Now there may be some level of truth to it, but given that whoever is making such a comment probably has cooking skills so poor that they can burn water, and they're talking about someone who's experienced and does the job for a profession, well, who's in a position to be critical?

The person that says the "Chef's food sucks" is in the best position to be critical.  They(the customer) are the ones that eat and pay for the food, which pay the Chef's wages.  If the customer is dissatisfied they wont return, and no matter how good the Chef think's he/she is, without customers there is no restaurant.
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #20 on: Jul 3, 2006, 10:55PM »
That last hairpin in Rake's video is very impressive. I'd call that drifting. Most rally driving is based on drift, someone decided it looked impressive so they started doing it in road/track cars on bitumen. So in a roundabout way it's basically a show of car control.

Watching drift events doesn't really interest me, but actually participating in motorsport does interest me. I haven't had any opportunities to do so yet, but hopefully that'll change. I'm most keen to try my hand at drifting and hill climbs, and yeah... for the drifting I'd prefer to be in a RWD car for that extra element of control.
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Offline ehh

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #21 on: Jul 3, 2006, 11:56PM »

  There have been various Honda Civics set up for mountain drifting in Japan, as seen on the Japanese Animation series known as 'Initial-D' so why do people bag FWD cars when it comes to drifting. It has been seen and it is possible. Please state your opinions on the subject of drivlines in Drifting.

um...... just because a car appears in intial d doesn't mean it can drift.. :P..

anyway, it all depends on what your exact definition of drifting is, if it is power on over steer , then no front wheel drive cars can't drift.....if it is simply the act of sliding around a corner in anyway then and kind of car can drift...end argument...


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Offline HIRO

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #22 on: Jul 4, 2006, 02:12AM »
um...... just because a car appears in intial d doesn't mean it can drift.. :P..


What you see on Initial-D is pretty much how it is. Although its just Anime, its all based on what realy goes on, most of those cars are the typical options when dirfting in the hills. What Initial-D does is provide the viewer with the chance to see them all in action. No matter how crazy or far fetched the drifting seems, if you watched that video by Rake, you will beleave it because that last hair pin was frikin unbeleavable!
« Last Edit: Jul 4, 2006, 02:19AM by HIRO »
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #23 on: Jul 4, 2006, 03:05AM »
back in my day we used to call them "fishies" and "slides" and they were done with our bmx's... oh how things have changed.
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #24 on: Jul 4, 2006, 10:23AM »
HIRO is right though, a lot of what you see in Initial D is proper drifting stuff, its all legit because the guy that is japans drift king, actually helps direct the anime, and funnilly enough he taught the producers and creators of the anime how to actually drift so they also knew what they were on about.

So yeah just because its a cartoon doesn't mean that it doesnt have merit, in fact it has more merit then you would believe.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #25 on: Jul 4, 2006, 02:28PM »
FWD and AWD can drift. And you don't need to use the handbrake. Having a bit of stereo in the back of a FWD helps :)
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #26 on: Jul 4, 2006, 05:31PM »
its all about the definition of "drift".

if it is power on over steer , then no front wheel drive cars can't drift

this the way i see drifting....do you see any FWD cars in D1? no....and there never will be, because they cant drift, they can "slide" but in no way, shape or form could they ever perfom feats see within the D1 comp.

i dont see how a cartoon can make people think that a certain car can "drift".

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Offline chr1S

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #27 on: Jul 4, 2006, 05:56PM »
oh have a fucking cry...

fwd's drift in their own way. get over it.
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #28 on: Jul 4, 2006, 06:25PM »
^ yeah they DON'T- thats 'their own way' haha
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Offline CS2rex

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #29 on: Jul 4, 2006, 06:36PM »
i've found that a flat-ish rear tyre in a front wheel drift can induce sliding/drifting, a fun day out in my gf's excel proved this.. the passenger rear tyre was down, and was going round a right hand turn. the rear stepped out heaps, was so fun, i went back and did it again, and again. heh

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #30 on: Jul 4, 2006, 07:03PM »
its all about the definition of "drift".

this the way i see drifting....do you see any FWD cars in D1? no....and there never will be, because they cant drift, they can "slide" but in no way, shape or form could they ever perfom feats see within the D1 comp.

i dont see how a cartoon can make people think that a certain car can "drift".

if you had read what I said earlier... Japans Drift King who Judges D1 helps out with the anime, and if he thought it was wrong he would have put his foot down and said so, but he didnt did he? probably becuase he had nothing against FWD's doing a style of drifting... and thats why it made it into the cartoon the way it did didnt it?

and if you think about, they use the handbrake plenty in RWD drift, the only difference being the front wheels dont pull in RWD cars, and in FWD the wheels do pull so keeping the car kicked out is a lot harder, and in an AWD its just about continous shifting of the weight to keep the rear outwards. And also Handbrake drift is one style of drifting, theres also others, and just because a RWD accomplishes all of them on a whole better doesnt mean that theyre the only cars that can drift...

Offline Rake

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #31 on: Jul 4, 2006, 08:50PM »
I get your point here rake, but you haven't really thought it through properly...
The person that says the "Chef's food sucks" is in the best position to be critical.

words words words


I realise this and I fully understand what you're saying.

BUT.

You must realise that what I said was meant to be interepreted in one way / one context, when you've interepreted it in another way. Ok you do realise what I did mean to say but why go finding flaws?

So while you are not wrong, I must ask that you try and realise and understand precisely the point that I am trying to make because as far as I care that's all that is relevant, regardless of how well or poorly I may have communicated it. While I'm sure there is a better example, I can't think of one.

In my opinion some people need more basic, other-topic examples because somebody will be too dumb to read and think about a black-and-white explaination of one's thoughts. I say that I think people are quick to badmouth drifting when I believe they don't necessarily realise that it's probably a good deal more difficult than they realise - and because of this, it does deserve some appreciation. Unfortunately, some people don't even think for a moment "Maybe he's right", or offer anything constructive to counter / debate me ("That's not true, because.."). They just come out with "OMG DRIFT SUCKS LAWL". Which, no offense, is what has happened here. Not only was what I said virtually ignored, but you went on to try and be politically correct about a simple example I made to get my point across. ffs!
« Last Edit: Jul 4, 2006, 09:01PM by Rake »

Offline Jtas

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #32 on: Jul 4, 2006, 09:34PM »
I tried to keep my point really subtle, but I guess I made it far too subtle... 

I was trying to stir up a debate on the long term / main stream popularity of drifting in Australia.
(by reusing your analogy of chef's food/customers dissatisfaction)

Out.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #33 on: Jul 5, 2006, 02:30AM »
Ok fair enough. Sorry to vent.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #34 on: Jul 5, 2006, 03:53AM »
My two cents. My first cent is that I think drifting could have a place in mainstream Australia because drifting does seem to allow faster travel in certain situations and thus can be taken seriously. Drifting certainly seems advantageous when there are many tight curves in the road or when the road is slippery (wet). However I know I am wrong because drifting has already taken off and mostly because it really does look cool.

My second cent is about FWD drifting. Firstly, control is essential in drifting. Anyone who has actually driven both RWD and FWD more than once will know you have easier control in FWD than RWD when the drive wheels are spinning. It's simple physics, the steering and power are applied directly together on the same wheel, whereas the RWD has a large physical distance between the power and the steering wheels. While a pro drifter might maintain control regardless of R/F/AWD, the beginners without an endless supply of quarter panels might get more fun and less bang for their buck when practicing drifting in a FWD.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #35 on: Jul 5, 2006, 08:17PM »

My second cent is about FWD drifting. Firstly, control is essential in drifting. Anyone who has actually driven both RWD and FWD more than once will know you have easier control in FWD than RWD when the drive wheels are spinning. It's simple physics, the steering and power are applied directly together on the same wheel, whereas the RWD has a large physical distance between the power and the steering wheels. While a pro drifter might maintain control regardless of R/F/AWD, the beginners without an endless supply of quarter panels might get more fun and less bang for their buck when practicing drifting in a FWD.
there is no way you would have more control in FWD than a RWD, personally i feel far more in control of the 180, than i ever did in my TRX im sorry to say, when the drive wheels are spinning, there is no way you could change direction in FWD car, to me that does not represent control.


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Offline CS2rex

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #36 on: Jul 5, 2006, 08:28PM »
i think wat peeto is trying to say if ur loosing the back in a rwd its harder to control than spinning the wheels in a front wheel thats understeering, due to different uses of the accelerator.

come off the accelerator in a rwd u run the risk of spinning, u come off it in a front wheel to get traction, making it easier to "control"

so in effect i think he is trying to say its easier to REGAIN control once its lost?? i dunno thats just my spin on his post

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #37 on: Jul 5, 2006, 09:18PM »
It's simple physics, the steering and power are applied directly together on the same wheel, whereas the RWD has a large physical distance between the power and the steering wheels.

Uh.... I have no idea where you learned physics from... but I sugest you re-read the textbook... as well as maybe some kinematics lectures...

Now I have no interest whatsoever in drifting... i strongly regard Rallying to be a true test of skill... then F1. But when someone brings up mal-digested information... it sparks my attention (maybe it brings out the Flame warrior in me  :P)

The distance between the wheels (aka wheelbase) will only determine the turning radius. Small cars, small wheelbase, small turning radius. Trucks, big wheel base, massive turning radius.

Where the driving force comes from, doesn't affect how easily controlled the car becomes in regular driving. The weight distribution and position of the motor affect the control.

A front wheel drive car has the engine at the front, causing a disbalance. Exaggerated, it basically means all the control is in the front wheels, and the rear wheels are basically just floating. Hard turns will make the back end whip out easily, if traction is held. When traction is lost, the mass of the engine will make the car continue a straight line (Understeer).

Rear wheel drive has a better distribution for weight, almost 50/50. When traction is lost in the rear wheels, the rear of the car will whip out (oversteer) but the front wheels can still be used to reposition the front of the car. This provides much easier control of the rear of the car, hence, the vechicle in general.

The best example to see it all done to extremes is rallying. Watch when an AWD vehicle reaches a hairpin. Using left foot brakeing (or line-lock), they lock the front wheels, then apply full throttle to whip out the rear. This is an extreme example of full traction in the front (Locked) and full loss at the back. Full control the entire time. The only way to do that in front wheel drive would be to maintain traction at all times.

Simple.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #38 on: Jul 5, 2006, 09:47PM »
Alright. We get the message. FWD can sort of drift. But the thing is they will never compete with the likes of RWD in the real world of drift i.e. D1 or drift Australia, where drifting is done competitively, legally, on the track. So how about people stop abusing the sport, unless you want me to get started on another form of racing such as F1. I doubt FWD will ever have a place in drift competions, so cut your losses and shut up.

How about some of the followers or fans speak up and discuss the standing of the sport in Australia, like how it is the fastest growing motorsport in Australia at the moment or the fact that it is one of the most affordable levels of motorsport you could try your hand at? I for one, as soon as i get my sh!t together and sort out my cars, will be purchasing and/or building my own drift warrior by the end of the year (and i am apparently a uni bum!!).

So people stop dwelling on this FWD cars can or can't drift. Its quite irrelevant to the sport - id firstly like to see a FWD at mallala or the like and secondly see it be competitive with the other cars (which would all be RWD).

BB

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #39 on: Jul 5, 2006, 10:19PM »

The best example to see it all done to extremes is rallying. Watch when an AWD vehicle reaches a hairpin. Using left foot brakeing (or line-lock), they lock the front wheels, then apply full throttle to whip out the rear. This is an extreme example of full traction in the front (Locked) and full loss at the back. Full control the entire time. The only way to do that in front wheel drive would be to maintain traction at all times.

when u say front wheels r locked, u mean as in, not turning? if so, not saying ur theory is wrong, but if u take any rwd/awd car and lock the front wheels while turning or approaching a corner, there is no way ur cars gonna take that turn, it becomes jsut like a front wheel drive, understeers and doesnt go anywhere but straight, its only once u come off the brakes, allow the front wheels to spin again that it redirects itself. As in the case of rally cars, the locking of the front means all teh power is at the rear, then the rear end once sliding usually directs it where the driver wants it go anyway

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #40 on: Jul 5, 2006, 10:37PM »
FWD is more intuitive to control when it breaks traction. If your foot is down and it starts understeering, your natural instinct is to back off the throttle, which removes power from the front wheels and transfers more weight of the car to the front wheels, causing them to regain traction. If you're coming into a corner too fast and it starts understeering (as most FWD cars naturally understeer) your instinct is to hit the brakes, which lowers the road speed and the sideways force on the tyres, requiring less traction from them and cancelling the slide.

However in a RWD, if you put too much power down through a corner the car will start oversteering, instinct is to back off and hit the brakes, this causes the front wheels to slow down even more and more often than not the car will spin out. If the back end of a RWD car slides out you MUST keep the power down to control the slide. This goes against a driver's natural instinct so it can end up in some hairy and/or dangerous situations.

RWD and FWD cars require completely different driving styles to control when they're in a slide.

In short: for the average driver, FWD is safer than RWD.
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Offline bigpud2012

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #41 on: Jul 6, 2006, 02:01PM »
Alright. We get the message. FWD can sort of drift. But the thing is they will never compete with the likes of RWD in the real world of drift i.e. D1 or drift Australia, where drifting is done competitively, legally, on the track. So how about people stop abusing the sport, unless you want me to get started on another form of racing such as F1. I doubt FWD will ever have a place in drift competions, so cut your losses and shut up.

How about some of the followers or fans speak up and discuss the standing of the sport in Australia, like how it is the fastest growing motorsport in Australia at the moment or the fact that it is one of the most affordable levels of motorsport you could try your hand at? I for one, as soon as i get my sh!t together and sort out my cars, will be purchasing and/or building my own drift warrior by the end of the year (and i am apparently a uni bum!!).

So people stop dwelling on this FWD cars can or can't drift. Its quite irrelevant to the sport - id firstly like to see a FWD at mallala or the like and secondly see it be competitive with the other cars (which would all be RWD).

BB

hehe, an ill be there with you wont i now dion ;)

BB has this all sorted and i cant wait to be a part of it ;)

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #42 on: Jul 6, 2006, 02:40PM »
unless you want me to get started on another form of racing such as F1. I doubt FWD will ever have a place in drift competions, so cut your losses and shut up.

Another form of racing?

Drifting is not racing... not even close.

I don't even consider it to be true motorsport.  Its more of a 'motor-show-sport'.
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #43 on: Jul 6, 2006, 03:22PM »
FWD is more intuitive to control when it breaks traction. If your foot is down and it starts understeering, your natural instinct is to back off the throttle, which removes power from the front wheels and transfers more weight of the car to the front wheels, causing them to regain traction. If you're coming into a corner too fast and it starts understeering (as most FWD cars naturally understeer) your instinct is to hit the brakes, which lowers the road speed and the sideways force on the tyres, requiring less traction from them and cancelling the slide.

However in a RWD, if you put too much power down through a corner the car will start oversteering, instinct is to back off and hit the brakes, this causes the front wheels to slow down even more and more often than not the car will spin out. If the back end of a RWD car slides out you MUST keep the power down to control the slide. This goes against a driver's natural instinct so it can end up in some hairy and/or dangerous situations.

RWD and FWD cars require completely different driving styles to control when they're in a slide.

In short: for the average driver, FWD is safer than RWD.

This is exactly right, probably one of the best explanations ever posted here. +Karma to you Jono.

FWD and 4WD (as in east-west style) have better control full stop, especialy in wet weather and traveling through the hills. Take it from some one who own's both an RWD (R31) & a FWD (U12), yes, RWD's are better in D1-show comps and straight line;   But Drifting cannot be limited to Show Only, you need to consider Hill-Climbs/mountain drifting etc wich is not very big here in Australia - these kind of events wich I would never bring my R31 to, because even in the mildest wet conditions my car wants to slide out - for D1 Show Drifting...Hell Yeah I would use my R31 over my u12 because I would get more points for smoking the tyres and snaking etc which is not easy on the track (unless it's dirst or gravel). But its all still personal preferance and because RWD's drift easier is why the majority of people use them even in the hills in Japan, regardless of the danger. Many young Japanese teens die all the time during these events. e.g - Drifting in hill event's I would always use my u12 or if I had a better choice I would use a HNU12 with the Attesa driveline becuase I would have that extra advantage in an un-safe weather condition in which I have had many close calls in my old Z31 and the current R31 no matter how many awsome drifts I did, sooner or later and accident most likely to happen. In my U12 I have always kept safe, and I value my life and I am not stuped enough to take the risk off drifting a rwd in such unsafe, wet and bendy narrow roads.

Its important to realise that people have a certain style, so some drivlines suit individuals more than others because of there style, but technicley east west mounted cars are safer...e.g - my step brother who is a racer in both D1 and proper Track Racing prefers an RWD through the hills (RX7 series-1 or his 280-Z.) But the only reason he prefers them is because he has minimal experiace with a FWD and thats the only reason.  But ME on the other hand, I drive both cars equaly so I know the good points and not so good points of both worlds, because thats what they are - two different worlds and not to forget 4wd's and also rear mounted engines like Mr2's and Ferrari's etc wich would make it four different worlds of drifitng.

if you had read what I said earlier... Japans Drift King who Judges D1 helps out with the anime, and if he thought it was wrong he would have put his foot down and said so, but he didnt did he? probably becuase he had nothing against FWD's doing a style of drifting... and thats why it made it into the cartoon the way it did didnt it?


That's exactly right, +Karma to you.

its all about the definition of "drift".

this the way i see drifting....do you see any FWD cars in D1? no....and there never will be, because they cant drift, they can "slide" but in no way, shape or form could they ever perfom feats see within the D1 comp.

i dont see how a cartoon can make people think that a certain car can "drift".

Watch those video's that noss linked up. Thats one very basic example on how front wheel drives drift.  We are not all talking about Show Drifting, were talking about making the drift and we should be getting into more detail about when and where to use your choice in driveline, and how you think that car will handle while drifting in certain conditions etc. 'ADAPTABILITY' being the master word, cmon guys, don't be so limited.
« Last Edit: Jul 6, 2006, 04:11PM by HIRO »
"Druggies and Speed Junkies both O.D, but the difference between the two is that a Druggie overdoses, while the Speed Junkie over drives"

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #44 on: Jul 6, 2006, 08:21PM »
I'm sorry i thought this board was for discussion of motorsport not people to whinge about what kind of drive is 'safer' to drive and the physics of breaking traction (although that COULD be related to the sport of drifting, the RWD bit).  ;D

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #45 on: Jul 6, 2006, 08:33PM »
I'm sorry i thought this board was for discussion of motorsport not people to whinge about what kind of drive is 'safer' to drive and the physics of breaking traction

This thread is about technicality and physics of breaking/traction etc when drifting with different drives. How is this not motorspot? If 'you' wana talk about normal D1 motorspot stuff then suit yourself. But this thread is not limited to that in anyway. Its about drifting, which doesnt just mean Pro-D1 show stuff, in fact its hardly that. Its about dirfting in general.


(although that COULD be related to the sport of drifting, the RWD bit).  ;D

 

 ::) I still don't know how some of you just don't get it.

« Last Edit: Jul 6, 2006, 08:41PM by HIRO »
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #46 on: Jul 6, 2006, 11:02PM »

Watch those video's that noss linked up. Thats one very basic example on how front wheel drives drift.  We are not all talking about Show Drifting, were talking about making the drift and we should be getting into more detail about when and where to use your choice in driveline, and how you think that car will handle while drifting in certain conditions etc. 'ADAPTABILITY' being the master word, cmon guys, don't be so limited.

they arent drifting...mearly using crappy cheese cutter tyres under load to loose grip around a corner with the handbrake applied at all times,  i could get a car trailer to drift if that is the case!

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #47 on: Jul 6, 2006, 11:10PM »
Trailer drift...... i think that could catch on.....  ;)

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #48 on: Jul 7, 2006, 01:53AM »
loose grip around a corner with the handbrake applied at all times

lol you ever tried that in a FWD? ...you spin out.
you only need to give the handbrake a sharp jap like they do in a pro-d1 to get it to lose traction.

and I think the point HIRO is trying to get at here, is that JUST LIKE RALLY CARS IN THE FWD CLASSES, you use braking techniques and so forth so that you can Slide/Drift to get around corners and so forth.

Hes not bullshitting about D1 and crap, he's talking about general handling of a car in a situation. Could you imagine a 2L Turbo FWD Rally car not using the handbrake and feint and braking techniques to go around a corner? you'd get understeer all the time and crash into the crowd or he'd lose major time in building speed back up again, and then he'd be like I'M AN ASSHAT WHY DIDNT FLICK IT AROUND THE CORNER? Because some other asshats told me im not allowed to do that because its fake drifting and im a tryhard if I do so.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #49 on: Jul 7, 2006, 05:03PM »
haha nice call vlad.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #50 on: Jul 7, 2006, 10:39PM »
they arent drifting...mearly using crappy cheese cutter tyres under load to loose grip around a corner with the handbrake applied at all times,  i could get a car trailer to drift if that is the case!

Thats a load of shit actualy, very un-true.  You don't even need to use the handbreak all the time, there is many other ways. The handbreak is only aplied when it is truly needed, usualy just a quick and sometimes slight  pull, not a using it like driving a train.


and I think the point HIRO is trying to get at here, is that JUST LIKE RALLY CARS IN THE FWD CLASSES, you use braking techniques and so forth so that you can Slide/Drift to get around corners and so forth.


Exactly!


« Last Edit: Jul 7, 2006, 10:41PM by HIRO »
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #51 on: Jul 10, 2006, 01:03AM »
is drift not a form of slide...

so if a car is sliding around the corners apex, be it power oversteer/4 wheel drift/handbrake turns arent they all drifting in the first place?


Back on topic of drifting. Isnt the most effective way to drift not be creating those smoke shows. Cos if u were just at the point before the ttyres lose grip you would be able to get around the corner faster cos there would be more traction.

Or are these drift comps meant to be about showing off and not timed laps?

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #52 on: Jul 10, 2006, 07:47PM »
Any drifting is about show. Except when it's used in rallying.
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #53 on: Jul 11, 2006, 08:33AM »
have any of you seen drift bible?  not all drifts are for show, in the end of drift bible Keichi Tsuchiya performs his all out "drift attack" performing high speed drifts with "braking reduced to the absolute minimum" and "minimal countersteering."  This like the video says is the "ultimate form of drifting" because it mixes the high speed tarmac racing with drifting.  with that said, I believe that in some circumstances (certain corners) drifting can actually cut time.  knowing whether to grip or to slide is the hard part. 

another thought i just had, as of now all forms of motorsport that i can think of involve lap times, or some kind of timing.  whereas in drifting contestants are judged for style.  so unless someone can think of another form of motorsport that doesn't involve time, or someone can refresh me on the rules of drifting events, it seems to me that drifting really is a sport of its own.  then again motorsport doesn't really mean anything more than that,"motor" (cars,motorcycles, etc.) "sports" (games/contests).

I think the problem here is that the terms we are using aren't even defined.  what is a drift exactly?  what is a motorsport exactly?  without knowing this no one can answer whether drifting is a motorsport.  or whether fwd and awd cars can drift. 

and don't just anyone come in with a definition of a drift because honestly i don't even know who would be in a position to officially define it.
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #54 on: Jul 11, 2006, 10:05PM »
although i now realise this thread is not necisarily about drifting the motorsport, ill attempt to answer the above post to 'educate' people.

motorsport is defined as, according to myself, any sporting activty that uses a motor driven vehicle, be it bike, car, aeroplane etc.

As for other sports that don't involve time, how about demolition derbys or monster trucks?? Its kind of like what diving is to aquatic sports.

Drifting, as defined by CAMS, is '.....an activity designed to to be undertaken through a series of corners wherein the object of the exercise is to produce as much yaw rate as possible from the vehicle whilst demonstrating the driver's ability to control the direction and speed of the vehicle through a pre determined course'.

thats it for now BB


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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #55 on: Jul 12, 2006, 01:24AM »
Its kind of like what diving is to aquatic sports.

Nice analogy :)
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #56 on: Jul 14, 2006, 09:36PM »
mmmm FWD burnout :D


Offline Sticky

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #57 on: Jul 15, 2006, 04:28PM »
cough..clutchsmoke..cough


hahah jokes

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #58 on: Jul 24, 2006, 03:47PM »
Uh.... I have no idea where you learned physics from... but I suggest you re-read the textbook... as well as maybe some kinematics lectures...

Now I have no interest whatsoever in drifting... i strongly regard Rallying to be a true test of skill... then F1. But when someone brings up mal-digested information... it sparks my attention (maybe it brings out the Flame warrior in me  :P)

The distance between the wheels (aka wheelbase) will only determine the turning radius. Small cars, small wheelbase, small turning radius. Trucks, big wheel base, massive turning radius.

Where the driving force comes from, doesn't affect how easily controlled the car becomes in regular driving. The weight distribution and position of the motor affect the control.

A front wheel drive car has the engine at the front, causing a disbalance. Exaggerated, it basically means all the control is in the front wheels, and the rear wheels are basically just floating. Hard turns will make the back end whip out easily, if traction is held. When traction is lost, the mass of the engine will make the car continue a straight line (Understeer).

Rear wheel drive has a better distribution for weight, almost 50/50. When traction is lost in the rear wheels, the rear of the car will whip out (oversteer) but the front wheels can still be used to reposition the front of the car. This provides much easier control of the rear of the car, hence, the vehicle in general.

The best example to see it all done to extremes is rallying. Watch when an AWD vehicle reaches a hairpin. Using left foot braking (or line-lock), they lock the front wheels, then apply full throttle to whip out the rear. This is an extreme example of full traction in the front (Locked) and full loss at the back. Full control the entire time. The only way to do that in front wheel drive would be to maintain traction at all times.

Simple.

okay genius, first thing u haven't realized i am talking about cars that have 4 wheels, obvious to most but you seem to have missed it. i wasn't talking about the wheelbase distance, it obviously hasn't occurred to you that you could measure the distance between the front and back wheels. i was simply stating that the distance between power and steering in a FWD is exactly 0 (zero) whereas in RWD it is roughly equal to the distance between the front and back wheels (and i say roughly because we are talking drifting here... the car could be moving diagonally with major CV/diff slip).

read jono's post... he goes on to explain the consequences of this.

also, were not talking about regular driving, were talking about drifting. and only a moron would suggest that "Rear wheel drive has a better distribution for weight".

learn the basic principals of observation, learn to read English, then u might be ready to learn and discuss physics. sorry, i just hate being treated like an idiot by morons that are too stupid to understand what I'm saying. also i fixed your spelling mistakes in the quoted text.


Offline bogan_bob

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #59 on: Jul 24, 2006, 04:08PM »
^^^ Says he with an underpowered rear wheel drive car :D lol

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #60 on: Jul 24, 2006, 04:14PM »
uuuuh, is this thread still going?!
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #61 on: Jul 25, 2006, 01:18PM »
It's funny. Two weeks ago I went through a negative cambering roundabout hard, then steered even harder into it and was amazed when the ass of the car slid out at nearly a 40 degree angle. Felt extremely untidy but was not difficult to get it back under control with a touch of countersteering. I imagine this kind of thing would wreak havoc on the rear bushings and parallel links and wheel bearings, as well as pose a threat to my car and/or my life, so I'm simply not interested in doing it.

Although in my case it was completely unintentional I couldn't help but think "This is what they must define as FWD drifting."
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Offline ehh

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #62 on: Jul 25, 2006, 07:32PM »
What you see on Initial-D is pretty much how it is. Although its just Anime, its all based on what realy goes on, most of those cars are the typical options when dirfting in the hills.

well i think the simple fact that they actualy refer to it as "racing" in initial d show's how acurately they were trying to make it portay what goes on in the real world... :P


and for that matter i've never seen any real life footage of any civics(or evo's mind you) up in the mountains of japan trying to drift with the rest of them..
 :)


endounadably old chap

meh

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #63 on: Jul 26, 2006, 01:31PM »
well i think the simple fact that they actualy refer to it as "racing" in initial d show's how acurately they were trying to make it portay what goes on in the real world... :P


and for that matter i've never seen any real life footage of any civics(or evo's mind you) up in the mountains of japan trying to drift with the rest of them..
 :)

just because you havent seen a video doesnt mean it doesnt happen. theyres probably people in those cars doing it, but not many people like recording the evidence?

but there have been some BMI videos where they have taken integras and other sorts thru theyre special touge course they legally use.

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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #64 on: Jul 30, 2006, 11:57PM »
What is drifting?
QUOTE: www.driftsession.com
The official definition of a 'drift' according to the Drift Session is, "Exceeding your tires' limits of adhesion, exhibiting a lateral slip, resulting in an oversteered condition. We'll break it down like this: 1. 'Exceeding your tires' limits of adhesion' means that there is no longer enough traction available for your tires to maintain grip with the roadway. This can be caused by numerous things including: using too much horsepower at a given point in time, too great a degree to cornering angle, too much speed carried into a corner, slippery roadway conditions, etc. 2. 'Exhibiting a lateral slip' means that your car is traveling towards a vector that is not consistent with the direction your vehicle is facing; aka your car is facing sideways, but still moving towards the direction you were previously pointed. 3. 'Resulting in an oversteered condition' is basically defined as your vehicle angle being greater than the angle of the corner negotiated. The combination of these three elements is what we will use as the basic components of a 'drift.'

QUOTE AGAIN
Can only Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) vehicles drift?
No. Anything with wheels can drift, and probably some things without wheels too. Based off of the official Drift Session definition for drifting, drifting can be performed in any vehicle regardless of drivetrain type. While being much more difficult to perform drifts in a front wheel drive vehicle is it possible, with the proper technique, to drift them comparably to a RWD. The most common reason why people don't drift FWD vehicles is because it is much harder to do than a RWD and RWD vehicles are more common and affordable in Japan

Pretty easily understood then?
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Re: DRIFTING - RWD, FWD or 4WD?
« Reply #65 on: Jul 31, 2006, 04:36PM »
On that note this thread is LOCKED!

*click*

For those playing at home drifting is spelt-

d
r
i
f
t
i
n
g

end of lesson kiddies.
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