Author Topic: ITB'd KA24E  (Read 35425 times)

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Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #60 on: Jun 16, 2006, 05:08PM »
there is no such thing mag. it's just a picture.

why is it always when metal needs to be cut or bent it takes friggin forever... noss would laugh if he reads this  :D
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Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #61 on: Jun 26, 2006, 04:44PM »
why is it always when metal needs to be cut or bent it takes friggin forever... noss would laugh if he reads this  :D

it just does. on the upside, i actually didn't pay a cent for the flanges i had laser cut!

it's taking a bit of time to get the model done for the intake flange that bolts to the head, i want it as spot on as possible, and due to it's length, printing a 1:1 paper version to match to the head ports is proving time consuming...it has to be done on 2 pages.

I'm not in any rush to get this finished (gee can't you tell?!) as i'm not turboing the block that's in the car atm, i just don't think it'll hold up.

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #62 on: Jun 28, 2006, 11:23PM »
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #63 on: Jun 29, 2006, 08:50AM »
except with a plenum around them.

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #64 on: Jul 14, 2006, 12:04PM »
Velocity stacks are on their way, got em cheap too, $122 incl delivery for the 4 VS50-60's i ordered.

Offline thaivietg714

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #65 on: Jul 19, 2006, 05:32PM »
Quote from: pandas14
Just recently got this project running, so I might as well do a writeup.

Here goes.

Intake mani and TB's

First, get some 01' or higher Suzuki GSXR 1000 or 750 Throttle Bodies.

Then get an extra intake mani. 

Cut the runners off approximately 6" from the head flange. 

Go to Home Depot and get some rubber plumbing couplers.  They're about $5 a piece with clamps.

Clamp the Mani and TB's together to yield this...









And with the couplers trimmed down, and the velocity stacks on...





Now make 2 brackets that brace the TB's to the mani, for extra strength.

I used 3/4" by 3/16" steel.  You can find this at Home Depot.  Bolted one end to the TB's and the other slips under the mounting point for the PCV rail.  Make one per side.  Should look something like this...



Now make a bracket for the throttle cable to slip into.  I used 1 1/2" angle iron.  This can also be found at Home Depot.  Make it to bolt onto the mounting surface that the EGR used to sit on. 





Get a SOHC throttle cable.  The DOHC one is wayyyy too long.  The SOHC cable is too long too, but better than the DOHC one.  The end of the Nissan throttle cable that slips onto the throttle wheel fits in the Suzuki throttle wheel perfectly.

get two air boxes from a 01' and up GSXR 750.  These have the shortest velocity stacks.  Each airbox has two short stacks, and two long ones.  Once you have 2 boxes, you will have two full sets of velocity stacks to help you achieve the best powerband down the road.



That's it for the manifold part of things.

Now the fuel management.

I chose to use a MegaSquirt (MS) because of price, and because, well, I love DIY stuff as you can probably see.  haha

Get your board and bags of components all lined up like so...



Build the stimulator first.  This will help you learn how to make proper solder joints befor you start soldering the actual MS together.  The stimulator hooks up to Megasquirt and stimulates the MS such that it thinks it is running an engine.  What this does is allow you to make sure all of your MS is built and running correctly before trying to start the car with it.  It also allows you to download new codes to the CPU chip as you see fit, without having to have the MS in the car.  Very trick.



Follow the MegaManual at www.megasquirt.info and you will end up with this...



Now build the pigtail for the wiring harness...



and here's a better pic of how many wires there are.  This is the entire engine harness.  Stock one gets removed completely.



that's basically it for the MS.

Now for the ignition setup.

I chose to run a distributorless system off of early 90's Ford Escorts.  This system uses a trigger wheel that is mounted to the crank pulley to fire the ignition instead of a gear driven distributor.  This has many advantages, the first of which being that it is more accurate than the stock distributor.  It also gives full control of the ignition timing.

from left to righ in the pic below, we have the EDIS module, the VR sensor (reads the trigger wheel on the crank pulley) and the Coil.



Here is a picture of the spark plug wires modified to fit down the spark plug holes in the valve cover.  the boot that connects to the plugs has about a 30 degree bend in them so I bent them back straight, and trimmed the boots until they slid down into the holes in the valve cover.



Next, you have to get a trigger wheel made.  I have a friend who is a CNC machinist, so he made one for me, as well as prepping the crank pulley for the wheel.



And the wheel fit onto the pulley looks like so...





Now make a bracket to mount the VR sensor onto.  I put mine where the A/C compressor used to be.  just some more of the angle Iron used before, long enough to mount the sensor on, facing the crank pulley.

Next, make a block off plate for the hole that the distributor used to occupy.  I made mine big enough to mount the new coil to, as that is as far as the plug wires would reach.  Just simple 1/8" thick steel.  when finished it looks like this bolted to the engine, with the new coil mounted on it.





On a side note, here is the stock KA24DE timing map I scaled down.  I have used it and it works great. 



Putting it all together.

Now pull off your stock intake mani, and take out your engine harness.  You will no longer need either of these.  bolt the new mani onto the engine, it should look something like this...











You can also see in those pics the wiring harness was finished.  It's simply following the diagram, running each wire to each sensor.

the only things that were not on the diagrams were the tach signal, water temp gauge and the switched ignition power supply.  the Tach signal was cake, run a wire from the Clean Tach Out pin on the EDIS module to the Tach input on the back of the gauge cluster.  That's it.  Speedo will still work.  Run a wire from the second temp sensor in the intake mani to the coolant temp input on the back of the gauge cluster.  that's all for that.  And the B/R wire coming from the igntion switch on the steering column needs to be tapped into to get switched power to MS, and the ignition components.

 

However, the wiring diagram for the ignition is slightly off.  the polarity of the VR sensor wires is opposite than in the diagrams, so wire that up accordingly. 

I used the stock injectors for now, but I have some SR injectors lying around waiting to go in.  Stock injectors will be enough for now. 

for the brake booster, I used the stock PCV rail, and ran one line from its output to the brake booster.  Has worked great.  I also Tee'd a 1/4" vacuum line out of this line, on it's way to the booster, for the fuel pressure regulator.  Before doing any of this, I measured the vacuum in this line, and in the rest of the intake mani under all braking conditions, and the booster did not affect the vacuum in the engine.  This being so, it is safe, and fine to run the vacuum for the FPR from the brake booster vacuum line.

the TB's come from the factory with a vacuum line from each port Tee'd into one.  this is used for the map sensor.  Simply run a line from this to MS.  the MAP sensor is inside the MS box.

Then swap out the throttle cables, and hook the SOHC one up.

Finally, plug the EGR hole in your header.

If I recall correctly, this is about it for what I did on this whole project to get it running.  for the specifics of the MS building and whatnot, and the ignition specifics and diagrams, visit www.msefi.com and www.megasquirt.info.

I specifically did not go into extensive detail in these areas because it is covered very well at those two sites.

So finally start it up and get it idling correctly.  Do this by adjusting the screw that adjusts how far open the throttle plates are at "closed" so it has an idle speed you like, and adjusting the fuel amount in the MS.  You can then get your own wideband to tune it, or take it to someone.  Wichever's clever. 

After tuning it, GO DRIVE IT!  Don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back too!

Please forgive me if I have forgotten anything, it is a very long project, there is so much to do. I may have left a few small details out, but this is the major stuff.

Driving impressions
I don't have it tuned very well yet, but I can tell you that throttle response is immediate.  The engine also revs up MUCH quicker.  It does not feel like the lunky old KA.  It's a whole new engine.  This definately made it come alive.  It is, of course MUCh louder also.  It no longer sounds like a KA.  Sounds way more pissed, like an engine with 2x the displacement.No dyno slips yet, but once I get one, I will be certain to post it up, as well as a video/soundclip.


this is from 240sx forums, its a write up, it was inspired from a ka24e wiht itb's

sorry if its too long

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #66 on: Jul 19, 2006, 06:00PM »
Yeah, seen that before, he now has the itb's enclosed in a plenum similar to the extrusion i have and is turbo.

velocity-of-sound.com for teh win. ;D






edit: oops, didn't link correctly to the first pic.

« Last Edit: Jul 20, 2006, 08:34AM by SSS »

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #67 on: Jul 19, 2006, 07:16PM »
nice nice, adam please get this done asap :D

and video's pics, sound + tech article please ! no more mr secret from you  ;D
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Offline thaivietg714

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #68 on: Jul 20, 2006, 04:47AM »
this is gonna be a beast!

if he does this, his u12 will be the most respected to me...

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #69 on: Jul 20, 2006, 08:47AM »
The taper from the top of the velocity stacks to the opening of the ITB's matches the taper from the opening of the ITB's to the outlet, which means these should flow very well and provide a huge jump in intake charge velocity = more torque = more power. ;D

best of all there is little to no porting work necessary to match the velocity stacks to the opening of the ITB's to provide less turbulence and more laminar flow.

chris, this thread is about as much of a tech article as you're going to get unfortunately, it's not something i can write up to give step by step instructions on how to do; i just don't have the time.

Offline Colby

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #70 on: Jul 20, 2006, 02:23PM »
Why is it that that write up makes it seem so much easier at first that i know it will be if I ever tried to do it?

Real eye opener though... maybe not as hard as originally thought  :-\  Specially for a bit of a hack job like that.  Adam, your stuff looks so much more pro than that!  all smoothe and sexy.
Glad to see its coming together.

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #71 on: Jul 20, 2006, 02:30PM »
I'm not a fan of the DIY setups that use rubber couplers to secure & seal the itb's to a cutdown stock manifold...just leaves too much chance of something leaking or fucking up on a MAF sensed ecu.

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #72 on: Oct 17, 2006, 10:51PM »
The itb's at the moment are being respaced as i'm not happy with the alignment of them to the intake ports, i'm being very pedantic about this as near enough is not good enough in this case. the idea here is to achieve as straight a flow path as possible, hence less turbulence in the ports which kills VE. Several things need to be altered in this case as the groups of 2 tb's are being brought closer to each other, they are 4mm too far apart currently.

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #73 on: Oct 17, 2006, 11:03PM »
which two itb's are being brought together ?
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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Offline eurisko

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #74 on: Oct 17, 2006, 11:34PM »
4mm is a pretty big error. Especially for ITB where laminar flow is whats being aimed for. Bad luck with the spacing.

The Nissubishda will live....

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #75 on: Oct 18, 2006, 09:25AM »
the centre spacing bringing together the 2 groups of tb's is easily changed, but the 4mm out spacing of the 2 tb's was how they came when i bought them.

it probably would have been fine had i been using the nismo cast manifold originally designed for side draught webers, but even that would have been a comprimise as the runners even on that manifold aren't straight.

chris, what i'm doing doesn't apply to you, as my manifold is a one off for my engine, no stock intake components are being re-used. everything is custom.

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #76 on: Oct 18, 2006, 03:51PM »
ok adam...

i'll leave you to it...
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #77 on: Jan 18, 2007, 09:53AM »
Update:

My (severely) cut down stock intake manifold is here at work with me about to get milled flat, i decided against making a new intake flange this time as the stock cut down manifold will work fine with little comprimise.

Once it's milled flat the ports will be thoroughly re-shaped to get flow as straight as possible into the head, then my hand-formed tapered round-oval adaptors will be welded on, along with the first set of flanges.
Everything will then be ported and cleaned up again.

One other little design change i am making will be replacing the coolant return pipes with AN fittings to allow FAR easier coolant line hook up / removal for anytime i may need to remove / install the manifold again.
The single hardest job with removing / installing the intake manifold is those lines, getting the hoses on so they don't leak is the world's biggest PITA. :(

This new intake manifold is one of the major items that has to go in before i can even think about bolting up a turbo, my 1000cc/min injectors need larger bosses than the stock injectors to allow them to fit. (they are the 14mm double o-ringed type)

I decided this ITB setup is going to be the trial setup, depending on how this manifold performs will determine how much time and effort i will put in down the track on a complete one-off custom ITB manifold.


Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #78 on: Jan 18, 2007, 05:30PM »
Quote
then my hand-formed tapered round-oval adaptors will be welded on, along with the first set of flanges.

so the runners from the itb's to the head are round correct ? (im assuming they are, you have the same itbs as me), so with this "adapter" does it taper down the circle to a round-oval ?

I just quite don't understand what you meant by adapters, i think im thinking right though.

Why don't you get a piece of aluminium watercut? I rang up a place and they quoted me $30 without drawing up the flange on cad, but i already have that anyway...A flat bar of aluminium shouldn't be too $$$ anyway hehe.

With the runners, im getting them crushed at a metalworker (I will ask for sand to be put in so i get a nice smooth crush/bend), So it will be a circle and then crushed to the oval (but im assuming i WILL need an adapter of some sort.) I wish our engines never had oval ports, sigh.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #79 on: Jan 18, 2007, 06:03PM »
so the runners from the itb's to the head are round correct ? (im assuming they are, you have the same itbs as me), so with this "adapter" does it taper down the circle to a round-oval ?

I just quite don't understand what you meant by adapters, i think im thinking right though.

Why don't you get a piece of aluminium watercut? I rang up a place and they quoted me $30 without drawing up the flange on cad, but i already have that anyway...A flat bar of aluminium shouldn't be too $$$ anyway hehe.

With the runners, im getting them crushed at a metalworker (I will ask for sand to be put in so i get a nice smooth crush/bend), So it will be a circle and then crushed to the oval (but im assuming i WILL need an adapter of some sort.) I wish our engines never had oval ports, sigh.

yes, the runner adaptor changes the shape exiting the ITB's to oval shape to match the intake manifold ports.
It's basically just a 100mm section of 2mm thick tube crushed at one end, like you said. and good thinking with the sand packing idea...i'll have to try that. I'm doing mine at home. I was going to carve up a wooden form to make sure they are all the same, but it'll take too long.

I could have got the flange lasercut at work, but to tell you the truth i really couldn't be fucked! it would have been more fabrication that is unnecessary in my case.

Offline SSS

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #80 on: Jun 8, 2007, 09:49AM »
Thought i would provide an update since the performance section is clearly dead.

I've modelled most of the setup in solidworks to determine runner lengths and figure out what clearances i need to avoid interference with the clutch master cylinder.



As you can see, as much as i wanted to have straight intake runners, it won't be possible with the clutch MC where it is.

And please don't ask for the actual model files, unless you are prepared to pay for them.

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #81 on: Jun 8, 2007, 10:21AM »
excitement of the much much   ;D
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Colby

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #82 on: Jul 23, 2007, 12:04AM »
Well I was just bored and noticed a short vid on a ITB'd KA... clearly on a 240sx  Sounded pretty crazy!  Just a pitty we dont get to see it actually drive  :(

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #83 on: Jul 23, 2007, 12:21PM »
haha

so delayed  :D
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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Offline Colby

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #84 on: Jul 23, 2007, 12:48PM »
oh i thought i put a link in there... clearly not  :-[  now i feel stupid.. i'll find it and put it up tonight... or just search youtube... "KA ITB"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfQ4eA626kM
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2007, 12:03PM by Colby »

Offline Pingu

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #85 on: Aug 2, 2007, 02:56PM »
Hey, just thought i'd mention a generic thing people should look at when doing an ITB project on a nissan.
The older 3 litre maxima's had a throttle body which consisted of two seperate (40 odd mm ID) throttle bodies inside a rectangle. They decided to do this so they could run the intake manifold over the top of the engine close to the bonnet.

* Two of these together, with the shaft connected makes a quick four.
*It also has the throttle body sensor mounts.
* Flanged faces

The whole thing has a flanged face on either side, so you could adapt it to other parts ( flanges to accomodate existing flanges on runners and the new flanges on the throttle bodies / or individual flanged pieces of tube to connect to other runners or what not with a hose joiner) without too much trouble. I'll take some pictures of a couple if i get a chance and post here.

Andy


Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #86 on: Aug 2, 2007, 03:07PM »
40mm is a tad small
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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Offline Colby

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #87 on: Aug 2, 2007, 04:35PM »
Quote
The older 3 litre maxima's had a throttle body which consisted of two seperate (40 odd mm ID) throttle bodies inside a rectangle.
these would be adaptable on a standard KA plenum?  twin 40mm > single 54mm, but what is the diameter of the smallest section of it?
If they can be used in this fasion they would still make a reasonable upgrade.

Offline chr1S

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #88 on: Aug 2, 2007, 10:51PM »
No chance they'd fit on the standard KA24 plenum,

A custom plenum would be better anyway, the stock intake on the KA24 is absolute ratshit.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Colby

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Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #89 on: Aug 2, 2007, 11:16PM »
custom shit takes too much time and effort at the moment... we want new cheap bolt on mods!