Author Topic: Blown Head  (Read 7575 times)

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Offline slim

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Blown Head
« on: Mar 20, 2007, 06:37PM »
Well ive solved what has been causing my car to drink excessive water.
seems i have blown a head gasket or cracked/warped/blown/ the head.
The weird thing is that the oil hasn't turned milky and bubbles don't come up the radiator,
but when the spark plug is out of the last cylinder you can see the water in it.  >:(
damn wanna be hybrid!

So its off the road for about a month now whilst i get it into a mechanics to be fixed.
If anyone has a working head in WA PM please or know any good mechanics PM me.
thanxs.


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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #1 on: Mar 20, 2007, 07:50PM »
How many Kms has your car done now Slim?
My head gasket blew between No 4 cylinder and a water jacket at 198000kms.
At this point in time, don't be too concerned about the head being cracked, as i would be pretty sure that it will just be your gasket. The U13's are not renowned for cracking heads but with the age of our cars, gaskets do let go.
For safety sake, don't drive your car around... If you run it dry of coolant, you are definately running the risk of cracking the head. Or, if the cylinder fills up with coolant overnight, when you go to start the engine in the morning you could hydraulic lock the cylinder, causing damage to pistons / bearings etc.
I had my head taken off, shaved, crack tested and fully reconditioned, and had the car all put back together for a total of around $1300. I know exactly what they did and i know that it was done properly, not just slapped back together.
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #2 on: Mar 20, 2007, 07:58PM »
Thanks Dan? greenbird
Its done around 175000kms
I kinda know that the KA24DE is built proof.
But i do fear that the head has been damaged as i did go to the drags one night with this problem
and the last ANTRX cruise i went on i had this problem.
i thought that the water was just being boiled somewhere in the system so i kept adding water.
After my dad saw 2 + litres go in it got checked.
Where was your head taken off??
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #3 on: Mar 20, 2007, 10:06PM »
I had it done at a local mechanic here in Adelaide.
From your first post, I gather that you are in WA, so a little bit far away to take it to the same guy!
Like i said, drive your car no further to prevent any more damage being done. Take it to someone to be fixed, as that's the only way you're going to find out if the head is stuffed or not.
Obviously i don't know your car, but if the cooling system has been well maintained in the past, chances are that you won't have any corrosion issues in the head and you will only have blown the head gasket.
If the worst case scenario occurs, (depending on where it is cracked) if you have cracked the head, it may only cost you another couple of hundred dollars to have the head welded up and repaired.
Good Luck!
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Offline Ammerty

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #4 on: Mar 21, 2007, 12:17AM »
i can do a head change, alls i need is a new head gasket and the new head, its not too difficult
i have done it before, i wouldnt charge - i just love workin on cars
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2007, 05:13PM by Ammerty »
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Offline Colby

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #5 on: Mar 21, 2007, 12:27AM »
Say someone was super tight, and had this problem, I dont see why they couldnt take out the spark plug of the affected cylinder and drive it on 3 cylinders to the place of repair... sure it would sound like a WRX and run a bit rough, but it wouldnt do any further damage as there would be no compression on the cylinder.
Sux though to have a head gasket go... they suck to repair and $$$ too :(

Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #6 on: Mar 21, 2007, 01:27AM »
this head gasket is proving to be costly
sounds right colby bout the cylinder but it still has petrol flowin to it and the car drives fine in its condition
even managed 16.2 at the drags which isnt too bad considering its state.
thanks greenbird for your advice if only it your mechanic was in perth.
Ammerty you going to give me a warranty? or do i bash your door down when it dies a month later? lol
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #7 on: Mar 21, 2007, 07:36AM »
Whilst the engine is in the car, the head is not as easy to remove as Ammerty may think...
Due to the shape and size of the inlet manifold, you practically have to be a contortionist to get any tools under there to get the manifold off. It's extremely tight down there.
Just changing the inlet manifold gasket is a very time consuming and costly job...
Anyway, you don't want to just rip the head off, replace the gasket and slap it back down. That's asking for trouble.
Get the head crack tested and slightly shaved, so that you  have a perfectly flat surface for the new gasket to seal. Then have your valve clearances checked and adjusted as necessary, whilst it is all in pieces.
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Offline phreeky

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #8 on: Mar 21, 2007, 11:05AM »
Mate of mind had a sigma that did this, he had to pull the spark plug and crank over quickly to get the water out, put the plug back in and off he went. I've had an EA falcon blow a headgasket, water->outside of block, still ran a 15.4 like that at the drags too!

If you have a mechanic close by, and are confident in most things mechanical but not quite in changing a head gasket, maybe you could pull all the bits and pieces off (intake, exhaust manifold, etc etc) and get it towed to the machanic for the actual head gasket change, back to your place and put it all those bits back on? Depending on the labour for all that stuff you do, and the cost of a tow, may or may not be worth it.

Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #9 on: Mar 21, 2007, 11:39AM »
Greenbird the mechanics ive spoke to so far haven't mention shaving the head, can you explain why ild get this done?
but are going to pressure test it, check the radiator and hoses. this i understand.
I had thought about doing it my self but after considering the job i decided to get it done professional, sorry ammerty
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #10 on: Mar 21, 2007, 04:18PM »
You should shave the head, as when you take it off it will more than likely be slightly warped. This is due to the head being heated up and cooled down hundreds of times in its life (and possibly even overheated after the head hasket blew and air pockets were forming in the head).
To shave he head they place it in a milling machine where they just take a tiny amount of alloy off of the head surface, to take out any surface imperfections and ensure it is perfectly flat. This ensures that you have a perfect seal when you put the head back down on the block with the new gasket.
If you don't shave the head (and it is warped) and you bolt it back down to the block with a new gasket, chances are that you will blow the gasket again prematurely.
At the very least, make sure the mechanic has the head surface checked for any irregularity by someone who has the equpment to do so.
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #11 on: Mar 21, 2007, 05:42PM »
the mechanics did mention milling the head when it got pressure tested.
so that the head would fit on as it should incase of the warpn.
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #12 on: Mar 21, 2007, 08:07PM »
the mechanics did mention milling the head when it got pressure tested.
so that the head would fit on as it should incase of the warpn.

Exactly right!!
Have you been given a full quote to fix it yet slim?
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #13 on: Mar 21, 2007, 08:40PM »
The full quotes im getting are around $2000
thats labour, gaskets, reconditioning of the head (milling welding and whatever else is needed),
new head bolts, radiator service and hoses checked plus one guy offered to service the thermostat for about $50
Most mechanics are warranting the job as long Radiator/cooling system serviced for 2 years.
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #14 on: Mar 21, 2007, 10:46PM »
That's pretty pricey mate.
I had exactly what you are describing done to my car, but including a new thermostat, oil and filter change for about $1300....
Perhaps you shoud do some more shopping around?
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #15 on: Mar 22, 2007, 07:19AM »
Sorry dude, i lied to you.
I just found the reciept for having the head done on my car and it cost me just over $1600.
Sorry about that, but its still substantially less than the $2000 you've been quoted anyway....
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #16 on: Mar 23, 2007, 01:41PM »
The $2000 quote ive been given is a worse case scenario (WCS).
so the actual cost may be less depending upon the damage done.
Dan i think the reason of the costs might be due to me being perth and its remoteness plus 2k is WCS.

So 2K there goes the new cams i was gonna get after easter.

Any luck it should be in the workshop next week. YAH
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #17 on: Mar 23, 2007, 03:17PM »
$2000 worst scenario is not too bad. It will probably work out similar to what I paid for you then....
Before my head was taken off, the mechanic was expecting to see some corrosion happening, but the head turned out to be perfect. Fingers crossed yours is too! If it's had coolant in it all of its life (not just plain water) it should be okay.
Let us know how you go!
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Offline Taiwan Corsair

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #18 on: Mar 23, 2007, 03:45PM »
When my (ca20e) hg went I was quoted $2000 by the first place I went. I asked them for a breakdown of the cost and they said they were being really generout and not charging much for labour. They said it was $300 to get the head milled, $150 to have the radiator and coolant system cleaned out, $120 for a new water pump... I can't exactly remember the rest of the lies they told. They said labour only amounted to $200. Crap!

The next place I asked quoted $1500 and the place after that $1200.

I was pretty poor at the time (about a year ago) because I'm a fulltime student and my wife wasn't working back then. I had a go at doing it myself, which ultimately didn't succeed, but it did get most of the work done.

I found the cost of the water pump was actually $56 at supercheap, the HG itself was around $60?.. can't exactly remember. I got a spare head (which I didn't need, because when they checked the original one they said it was in good shape) for $99 from a wreckers yard.

The total money I spent was around $1000 including tools, parts and getting my dad's (rather more trustworthy) mechanic to finish the job once I'd run out of patience. I got a radiator specialist (Johns Radiators in Sunshine, for the benefit of Vic. members) to take a look at it, but he said it was really very clean already and there was no point spending the $50 (not $150!!) that he would charge to clean it out. Since then I've always taken the car to him whenever I need help with somthing, because he proved himself to be sincere and not be trying to rip anyone off.

The moral of the story is, if somone is trying to charge you $2000 for doing a HG, its a ripoff. Take it somwhere else.

I'm not saying do it yourself. I could have saved almost as much money by just taking it to an honest mech like the one who quoted $1200. I think I learned more from giving it a go myself though.

I think there are a lot of places that will charge $2000 though. Maybe its just because they think its hard work or somthing.
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2007, 03:47PM by Taiwan Corsair »

Offline Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #19 on: Mar 23, 2007, 03:58PM »
For $2000 you may as well get a engine from a wrecked car.

When I had a LX a few years ago I bought it at a cheep price for the time $4500 with a blow head gasket. We pulled the engine down to find that the coolent had leaked down into the cylinders and coroaded the walls, so I we ended up just swaping an engine over from a wrecked car at a cost of $1700 aud including labour, this car ran fine for me for the next 2 years and I have now sold it to my friends cousin whos had it for a good 6 months without any problems

If its going to cost you $2000 to do a head gasket its proberly better to just change the engine with one from a wrecked car or if you wanted to go one better you could get it swaped with a reconditioned eninge, this would be more expensive again but a better option.
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Offline eurisko

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #20 on: Mar 23, 2007, 04:26PM »
Dude, give me a grand and ill do ur head gasket :D

or

http://www.antrx.com/smf/index.php?topic=11976

 ;D

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Offline Taiwan Corsair

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #21 on: Mar 23, 2007, 04:35PM »
Well thats right, isn't it: lots of people are ready to help you fix it. There's really no need to go and get ripped off for $2000.

My wife's colleague at work who used to be (and will be again when he goes to Japan to set up a guarage!) a mechanic said changing the HG is like riding a bicycle: it may seem like a big deal at first, but once you learn, you'll always be able to do it. I know a lots of people who have done it themselves.

Offline Ammerty

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #22 on: Mar 23, 2007, 05:12PM »
well if they do it at least you know your gonna get it back faster than doing it yourself, cos you would have work n shit and they can spend all day working on it, lol
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Offline ffourc

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #23 on: Mar 23, 2007, 07:09PM »
$1600-2000 for a head gasket change!

It is so much cheaper to do yourself (IF YOU CAN but it does take time - takes me a day just to clean all the gasket surfaces).

All this doing it properly business - many mechanics aren't that particular.

Pull the head off, visually check it*, staight edge for warp, make sure all water galleries are clear, put it back on - new gasket. Chances are it'll be fine, if not you'll only be out $200 or so.(and time and skin- generally from your knuckles)

Assuming you have tools, jack, stands etc. the latter so you can reach some of the hard to get to bolts from below.

* the important thing is to check the old head gasket - if you can see where its failed = good, otherwise you may want to crack test the head

Offline Taiwan Corsair

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #24 on: Mar 23, 2007, 07:30PM »
Stands would definately have been a good investment for me. Luckily I'm thin enough to crawl under the car... and its not lowered. Had an ass of a time trying to get the crank pully off though. I think that's probably the hardest bit, depending on how stuck yours is... :) funny how its the little things that somtimes prove more of a problem than the more apparently complex task of understanding how it all goes together/comes apart

Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #25 on: Mar 23, 2007, 10:07PM »
Had an ass of a time trying to get the crank pully off though. I think that's probably the hardest bit, depending on how stuck yours is... :)

Dude, you don't need to touch the crank pulley to get the head off....
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #26 on: Mar 23, 2007, 10:24PM »
AS everyone is saying it could be done myself, i agree, but from pass experiences (gemini, laser, EA)
and due to the fact im working part time and studying at uni fulltime the rest of my days its going to be alot easier for me to pay for this to be done. 1 week compared to me spending about 3-4 weeks.
ffourc if the head gaskets gone its generally a good idea to check out the rest of the cooling system and do an inspection on the head.
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #27 on: Mar 26, 2007, 03:08PM »
I say do it yourself.  Save some dough and put in the new cams at the same time  ;D

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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #28 on: Mar 28, 2007, 09:26PM »
Its in the shop now  :)
The mechanic has a black bluebird SSS 96 in there aswell, hes doin some work on it for Kmart,
the sensor on the back of the block under the injector melted. lol
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #29 on: Apr 10, 2007, 11:17PM »
got the car back today, finally. Easter is a pain in the but.
so everything was done as i was saying.
the radiator top tank was replaced and radiator recond so that jacked the price up to 2k
ild rather buy http://cgi.ebay.com.au/G4-RACING-COILOVERS-TO-SUIT-NISSAN-ALTIMA_W0QQitemZ140075309219QQcategoryZ55436QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
for that price but im gettin a quote on a set from TEIN
not sure if its idling right seems to be a bit low, ill give it a week before i tinker.
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #30 on: Apr 11, 2007, 10:52PM »
Good to hear you got your car back Slim.
With regards to the idle, what is it idling at whilst the car is at normal operating temperature?
There's a sticker on the under side of the bonnet which says what the idle should be set to.
Might also pay to check your ignition timing to see that the mechanic set it up correctly...
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Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #31 on: Apr 12, 2007, 01:45PM »
greenbird i took i back this morning and just said its not idling right. has been stalling on me at lights and when i stop.
idle was at ~500 rpm, gave a bad shaking vibration through the whole car.
they moved the idle back up to ~700 rpm
There slight noise from the timing chain as the head has been shaved, so its lower now, and there is less tension in the chain.
the noise only noticeable at idle and not worth $700 for the replacement. above idle no problems as chain stretches back out.
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Offline NIZ013

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #32 on: Apr 12, 2007, 01:53PM »
Mine's been stalling every now and then on me at lights and when i stop ever since i got it. It was really bad in the first few months that i had it, then it didn't do it for nearly two years, but it's started doing it again over the past few months.

I've cleaned the AFM contacts, which helped a bit. It's only stalled once on me since i had that done, but the idle is still a bit rough. I've also noticed if i'm driving at a constant speed, the car feels like it's jerking. It's due for it's service, so i think i'll do a full service and change all the plugs, leads, oil, oil filter, fuel filter etc and see if that helps too. I'm wondering if it might be the injectors and/or fuel pump as well... I just don't want to spend too much on it as i want to get rid of it soon.

Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #33 on: Apr 12, 2007, 01:57PM »
Teena If your selling it don't spend alot on a service unless you add the service costs into the sale price.
Get your timing checked that might be the problem with the stalling, 10 min job for mine. but they knew what to look for.
i say your plugs are fouling up so replace them.
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Offline greenbird

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #34 on: Apr 12, 2007, 02:37PM »
Slim, Have a search through the forum re: timing chain rattles on U13's.
I've posted about it a couple of times.
If you remove the 2 timing chain guides from the upper timing chain on the head, your rattle will disappear!
The guides aren't needed and can be thrown away. Supposedly these guides were only there on the series 1 engines, but it's worth checking out on yours anyway.
You have a 96 model series 2, right?

My car rattled just as you describe yours is now. I removed the guides and it has been whisper quiet and problem free for the last couple of years.
Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline slim

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Re: Blown Head
« Reply #35 on: Apr 12, 2007, 04:40PM »
just read your other post on the timing chain rattle.
sounds interesting and i might do that in a few weeks when i get some spare time.
its is a series 2.
interesting thing: i read something in the engine bay saying that it was built in 1995, but its classed 1996 by the VIN codes and other info, manufacturer handbook and logbook
  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
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¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread