Do atheists need to know the bible?

[Jono]

Do good atheists need to know the bible?

Do good christians need to know the bible?

[Dano Da Bomb]

Do good atheists need to know the bible?

Do good christians need to know the bible?

dont know bout atheists but christians do need to know about the bible. Why are you asking??

[SSS]

athiests don't believe in religion.

[Jtas]

What's this religion stuff your talking about?

[FalconGuy]

Do good atheists need to know the bible?

Do good christians need to know the bible?

Interesting question. It depends why you want to know.

If you wish to argue the point with Christians (yourself being an atheist) then yes, it is important to know some of the bible, generally the parts that aid your defence of your point of view. If you are looking to debate with Christians, I really suggest you look into the Old Testament book: Deuteronomy. Thats the one with the angry, venegful god and mothers eating babies parts.

Also look up historical discrepencies of the church. Ie-the ommision and continual censoring of the bible, a good book on that is 'Harlot by the Side of the Road', which contains some 'lost' (read-censored) chapters of the Bible. The doing away with Purgatory and also the facts and figures of such religious based events as the Crusades and the inquisition.

As a note, being an atheist really means you should look outside the Christian religion and research the Quar'an and the Torah and draw parallels between all three religions. One example I can think of is that 'Amen' is a common blessing used in the 'big' three.

Thats for a start, personally, I'd like to go the next step of learning Arabic and reading the Quar'an that way but until then...




Cheers,
Brendan

[ehh]

aethiasts don't need to,,, but out of interest it doesn't hurt to have some knowledge....personally i'd like to get some knowledge off all main religions just out of interest... and having some decent knowledge about such things definately helps to make up your own mind about things!!!!!!!!!!!

[FalconGuy]

aethiasts don't need to,,, but out of interest it doesn't hurt to have some knowledge....personally i'd like to get some knowledge off all main religions just out of interest... and having some decent knowledge about such things definately helps to make up your own mind about things!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats exactly right the only thing as annoying as an uninformed Christian is an uninformed atheist!



Cheers,
Brendan

[Milford]

yes, a religious debate, these always turn interesting

[Febrile]

I'm an aetheist, but damn, you gotta give some credit to a text/collection of stories that has been studied and followed through at least 2000 years of human existence... think what that much manpower/thought applied to a project today would yield!

Oh, and lol@Danooh, I love this:

christians do need to know about the bible.

"Christians have to be aware that their religion is written down in a book somewhereabouts..." 

[bigpud2012]

this is just asking for a massive argument!!!!!

id say lock the thread LOL

[Jono]

id say lock the thread LOL

That isn't really called for, bigpud. I'm hoping for more of a heated debate

I have nothing personal against anyone for their religion, nor do I have anything against religions. For the record I am an atheist.

Interesting question. It depends why you want to know.

I am asking only to see what others have to say on the subject.

dont know bout atheists but christians do need to know about the bible.

Why do you say this? Because that's what they told you at school/church? Or is there a reason? Personally, I don't believe either christians or atheists need to know the bible. I do believe they will be better informed and better able to participate in a conversation of religion if they do.

As a note, being an atheist really means you should look outside the Christian religion and research the Quar'an and the Torah and draw parallels between all three religions.

So you're saying atheists should know a bit about each of the 'big 3' religions? Or is it just a matter of interest? I'm only using the bible as an example because it is the holy writing of this country's most popular religion.
BTW, thanks for the pointers, I'll check them out when I have time.

Thats exactly right the only thing as annoying as an uninformed Christian is an uninformed atheist!

Definitely, in a religious debate. In everyday life, not so.

you gotta give some credit to a text/collection of stories that has been studied and followed through at least 2000 years of human existence... think what that much manpower/thought applied to a project today would yield!

The way I see the bible is as a way to keep the masses under control. It classes certain acts as sins and prohibits people from performing them, for example the ten commandments. They are commonsense rules (except for the first one, which enforces the other nine) which when put into practice, allow people to live together harmoniously.

If that amount of thought was applied to a project today, the result would be about a tenth of what was produced because of today's various time-wasting rituals such as having the project reviewed at least 20 times to make sure it didn't breach any religious/social/legal ethics.

Let the debate begin 

[VladIvanovic]

... If you are looking to debate with Christians, I really suggest you look into the Old Testament book: Deuteronomy. Thats the one with the angry, venegful god and mothers eating babies parts.

Also look up historical discrepencies of the church. Ie-the ommision and continual censoring of the bible, a good book on that is 'Harlot by the Side of the Road', which contains some 'lost' (read-censored) chapters of the Bible. The doing away with Purgatory and also the facts and figures of such religious based events as the Crusades and the inquisition ...

lol funny that someone mentioned uninformed atheists are annoying as an uninformed christian/whatever religion and yet theres one thing people dont understand...
that the old testament is a story from the past and that the new testament is what the main catholic/orthodox/christian religions, seeing as the new testament is about Jesus and hence these religions tend to mainly focus on Jesus and what he did for the whole earth upon the cross and so forth. The point of the old testament is more like creation and then the lead up and showing stuff about humans and our existence and how it lead up to Jesus, and then it goes from there through all the chapters up to revelations and stuff.

I dont know why your lookin to start a debate seeing as all it will bring is crap between people on this forum, and people clicking the - sign on peoples karma and lots of arguing between fellow antrx members. Sure itd be nice to debate and whatever, by why waste time.

Faith is something a person either accepts or doesnt. You cant force someone onto it, they have to be willing to accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, or that Mohammed did so and so in the Quran or that a fat man called Buddah walked the earth and stuff. Personally, id just lock this asap before it goes to far.

[Jono]

I dont know why your lookin to start a debate seeing as all it will bring is crap between people on this forum, and people clicking the - sign on peoples karma and lots of arguing between fellow antrx members. Sure itd be nice to debate and whatever, by why waste time.

I'm putting my faith in my fellow antrxers not to turn this into a shitfight.

To everyone: If you are going to waste time and start an argument for the sake of something to do, go to the flames section or somewhere other than this thread. Thanks.

[noss]

yeh i dont see why we should have to lock it.. i think its fine so far.. only the closed minded people will turn it to shit (like always) and then it will be locked.. but until then, freedom of speech guys..


personally i'm interested in satanism but then i dont know.. i dont need a religion to be complete as a person or to have a basis for my moral fibre. i am me and i am what i make myself.

[ashman01]

personally i'm interested in satanism but then i dont know.. i dont need a religion to be complete as a person or to have a basis for my moral fibre. i am me and i am what i make myself.

See now thats what i dont understand. Ive been made a christan. Since i was old enough to remember my grandmother dragged me to church right up untill i was 12-13 which means im very knowlagable about the bible yet apart from being a great 2000year old read that many have edited and taken out of context, i dont believe its what everyone should be following.

As far as blue nails, black hair, skulls and gay japanese men licking their lips, i just dont get that. I dont think there is anything wrong with it and some of it looks really good (sept the jap guy) but i just dont see why?

[Jtas]

.. i dont need a religion to be complete as a person or to have a basis for my moral fibre. i am me and i am what i make myself.

same here, and I don't get why so many people need religion, especially religions based on books written so many years ago.

[BoGAn]

Heh. Good old religious debates are fun. I have my own beliefs, i was brought up catholic. However i disagree with a lot of their ideals/rules, and I see organised religion as a major player in many of the worlds ills and a tool for the manipulation of stupid and/or uneducated people.

The bible is the greatest collection of stories ever written. And they are just that - stories. People who interpret the stories in the bible as literal, factual historical occurrences are missing the whole point. Many of the stories serve as explanations of a deeper message. They are just written in a simple � way that people will understand.
Eg: Noahs ark. If you believe that some bloke rode out a flood for 40 days and nights with two of EVERY animal on his boat while the rest of the sinful world died in the arse, you are mentally defunct in many respects. That story shows that there are consequences for living a sinful life, and rewards for living a good one.

I dont think anyone has to know the bible as such, but it sure helps to understand defend the beliefs you hold. Id like to have a flick through other religious texts out of interest but I dont have the time. Ive got the koran and also some satanic texts lying around somewhere, but have never gotten around to reading them.

Theres no real need for religion. Just use common sense and trat others in a manner in which you want to be treated.

And theres no need to call for a lock to the thread. If anyone thinks they wont be able to have a mature discussion without acting like a fuckstick, dont post and dont read anyones replies.

[RichTRX]

Religious doctrines often teach people that there's something wrong with them if they don't accept religion; that they're outcasts or "tools of satan" or "god hasn't accepted them".

I am faced with this battle nearly every single day - my girlfriend is a Jehovah's Witness and the very idea to her that even her religion could be wrong, let alone the bible, is unthinkable. Keeping the relationship steady while at the same time trying to express myself in a way that doesn't hurt her feelings or make me look like a "tool of satan" in her eyes is proving to be the hardest task I've ever tried to undertake. She is worth everything I do for her in my eyes, but a lot of the time it is an uphill battle.

If Jehovah's Witnesses are correct then I, along with approximately 5,700,000,000 other people, will soon be dead. I don't believe they are correct.

I have read at least 200-300 full A4 pages and hundreds of websites dealing with this topic and it is an incredibly complex issue. There are many issues that the Bible points to that 'could' prove the Bible to be written by god, and correct in what it teaches, but those very same issues can be proven more compellingly against it. For example, the very same scripture in the Bible that religious "organisations" use to "prove" that the writers of the Bible knew the world was spherical before anyone else can be used against it to prove that they thought the world was simply circular.

For example, this scripture at Matthew 4:1, 8-10.
"
The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: 'All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.' Then Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan!'
"
For this to be true the world would have to be flat, because no matter how high the mountain, you would only be able to see a very small sectional area of the earth - you can't see the other side of the earth from a high mountain, can you? Jehovah's Witnesses' typical rebuttal of this is that "the Bible is simply speaking figuratively". If this is so, how can we be expected to follow this example? Why are they using a figurative scripture as "proof"? How many more of the doctrines that Christians follow so closely are simply figurative?

The same is true of the large tree described in the book of Daniel. From this tree you could supposedly see the whole earth, but the same argument as before applies. Also the "world tree" idea was definitely not limited to Daniel. Many pre-Christian cultures believed that a "world tree" sat in the middle of the world and gave life to the whole earth. Obviously for this to be true, again, the world would have to be flat.

There are many other arguments against the Bible, as well as many arguments for it. The dinosaurs, which incidentally are never mentioned in the Bible, are a bit of a problem for Christians. Categorising them with "the wild beasts", which the JW's try to do, simply doesn't cut it. The Bible also putsmankind at about 6000 years old, where there is evidence of at least 100,000 years of human existance. And if the Bible is so righteous, why does it seem to support slavery?

There's enough information to battle it out forever, and indeed, it has been battled out almost since time began. It's just a d*mn shame that so many people have suffered because of it.

[xxcbonexx]

Holy cow- so much reading.

Ill just stick to the original question. Yes and Yes. If only at least for the fact that you need to know both sides of any argument before you debate it.

As for my own views on religion, Ive kinda pieced my own thing together. And after reading some previous posts, I must find some place to wedge in a gay japanese man licking his lips (lest my life be otherwise morally bereft)

[noss]

As far as blue nails, black hair, skulls and gay japanese men licking their lips, i just dont get that. I dont think there is anything wrong with it and some of it looks really good (sept the jap guy) but i just dont see why?

this is the close mindedness i was talking about. a prime example of someone making an argument on their totally uneducated views. of course when someone mentions satanism or whatever they assume it means goths and heavy metal, human sacrifices, blood drinking and all this other totally stupid stuff which is, funnily enough, invented by christians to deter people from satanism. i guess a lot of people that are satanists fit into the goth/listening to rock category, but also a lot of people dont.

i also never said i was a satanist, i just said it was something i was interested in. satanism is a philosophical 'religion'. satanists DO NOT worship satan, the idea of such a think is simply rediculous.


officially i am a catholic. but i lost my faith in the church when i was quite young. the whole 'do unto others as they do unto you' thing is total bullshit in my eyes. i have 2 younger brothers, both are mentally disabled and slightly physically disabled, basically meaning that they're a bit slow at learning, and they cant do simple things that you take for granted like catching a ball or jumping or standing on their tip toes. the catholic church/school treated them like dogs, it was horrible, yet they preached that they loved all of gods creatures. rubbish.

evangelists (born again christians) are in my eyes one of the worlds biggest problems, and the church and its evangelists have had their hand in every american presidential election for the last 50 years or more, hoping that they can have a president voted in that will force their views onto the rest of america.

religion is a differnt thing to different people. my view on it is basically its a set of simple rules that allow mankind to live in harmony, and as bogan said, a bunch of stories for people to take a deeper meaning from.

[RichTRX]

religion is a differnt thing to different people. my view on it is basically its a set of simple rules that allow mankind to live in harmony, and as bogan said, a bunch of stories for people to take a deeper meaning from.

amen 

[BoGAn]

On a lighter note:
http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108310&

[FalconGuy]

lol funny that someone mentioned uninformed atheists are annoying as an uninformed christian/whatever religion and yet theres one thing people dont understand...
that the old testament is a story from the past and that the new testament is what the main catholic/orthodox/christian religions, seeing as the new testament is about Jesus and hence these religions tend to mainly focus on Jesus and what he did for the whole earth upon the cross and so forth. The point of the old testament is more like creation and then the lead up and showing stuff about humans and our existence and how it lead up to Jesus, and then it goes from there through all the chapters up to revelations and stuff.

Now, I do have an interesting question, and this was brought up to me one day by a good friend of mine who is a lay preacher.

He pointed out to me one day that, for a christian at least, many of the 'Old Laws' of the Old Testament, including say the Tithe, Original Sin etc are no longer applicable. With Jesus dying on the cross for our sins (I am not historically going to dispute this), this meant that all sins previously lumbered upon the human race are null and void, and the laws of the Old Testament are therefore irrelevant. Now this is from a Mainstream, Christian Lay Preacher?!?

I do know that the Christian Church quite often reads from the New Testament however, when something like th 10% Tithe comes into play, back to the Old Testament they all good. Look at places like South America, where the draconian style of the Catholic church there still holds the peasents to their tithe, regardless of all other circumstances.

Also, I suppose it also varies with what actual breed of Christianity you are talking about. For example, the Anglican and other Protestant ministers were always known for giving good old fashioned Fire and Brimstone Vengeful God Masses.




Cheers,
Brendan

[FalconGuy]

There are many other arguments against the Bible, as well as many arguments for it. The dinosaurs, which incidentally are never mentioned in the Bible, are a bit of a problem for Christians. Categorising them with "the wild beasts", which the JW's try to do, simply doesn't cut it.

And Jesus and his disciples walked down the trail towards Nazareth but oh, the trail was blocked...by a giant Brontosaurus.

With a splinter in his paw...

and the disciples did run'a screaming; WHAT A BIG FUCKING LIZARD LORD!!!

I'm sure gonna mention this in MY book, said Luke

I'm sure gonna mention it in MY book, said Matthew.

...I'm not sure what I saw....said Thomas...Timothy nudged him, It was a big fucking lizard Thomas!




Ah Bill Hicks, an enourmously funny man and a great shame he has passed away.




Cheers,
Brendan

[FalconGuy]

evangelists (born again christians) are in my eyes one of the worlds biggest problems, and the church and its evangelists have had their hand in every american presidential election for the last 50 years or more, hoping that they can have a president voted in that will force their views onto the rest of america

Yes, the evangelists are a SCARY political prospect in the United States however, do not think we are exempt from it here in Australia now either.

The massive company, Hillsong Church, located in Sydney I believe (Aside from its turnover of Millions of Dollars) also counts among its 'flock' on more than one occasion: John Howard, Peter Costello, Tony Abbot and Kim Beazley.



Brendan

[Resin]

What about religious people knowing about what aetheists believe in? ...e.g evolution ...bigbang etc ......all that mumbo jumbo

pretty much if u go to school u will get taught religion at least while ur at primary ......so u get know the religious stuff ....
my parents believe in god but never go to church ........i foloowed there beliefs untill i went to high school and now i am aetheist ....

[BoGAn]

Being christian doesnt mean you must by default discount evolution. And vice versa - believing evolution does not mean you by default discount God. Its all in how you interpret the creation story. Those stories were written yonks ago - people of the day would have had no concept of where they came from - and any story told to people would need to factor in their level of understanding and knowledge. These stories simply gave people an idea on how they got where they are. Science has given us a better understanding, yet if you believe in God you can still apply creationism to evolution - God provided the necessary tools for life, going back to mere atoms, then kicked back with a few tinnies and a smoke and watched it all happen. Thats not to say these are my beliefs, just an example of how you can merge creationism and evolution. This is actually somewhat derived from what one of my high school teachers once said. He was/is both a physicist and a deeply religious man.

Modern science proves evolution in many ways, from conservation of genes (believe it or not, critically important genes regulating cells are near 100% identical in everything from yeasts to humans) to fossil records.

The rise of Hillsong is just scary - if we go the way of the religious nuts in America we're fucked

The massive company, Hillsong Church, located in Sydney I believe (Aside from its turnover of Millions of Dollars) also counts among its 'flock' on more than one occasion: John Howard, Peter Costello, Tony Abbot and Kim Beazley.

They can all smell the votes. The evangelists are becoming a rather large enough group to be pollitically worthwhile pursuing.

[RichTRX]

I remember a wise person once said "Religion tells us who created us and why, and science tells us how it was done." There is far too much scientific evidence supporting evolution to be able to really deny it anymore, and indeed, even few religious organisations try to deny it anymore. (JW's still do). While the Darwin theory on evolution has had to be revised, the same basic ideas still apply in today's views on evolution, and more and more they are proving to be hard-to-disprove. One day we'll know.

If you're not religious, you can decide whether you are athiest or agnostic.

Athiest people believe that there is no god.

Agnostic people believe that there may be a god, but not the god that we worship at the moment.

I don't know what I am. I'd have to say neither. Whether or not there is a god, or whether or not that god is who we worship currently, I don't believe organised religion is the way to go about it.

[noss]

good to see that this conversation has so far been kept very civil. good work guys keep it up.

[noss]

Agnostic people believe that there may be a god, but not the god that we worship at the moment.

I don't know what I am. I'd have to say neither. Whether or not there is a god, or whether or not that god is who we worship currently, I don't believe organised religion is the way to go about it.

come on rich, we all know that i, noss, am your lord and god and antrx.com is our kingdom

[RichTRX]

come on rich, we all know that i, noss, am your lord and god and antrx.com is our kingdom

hahahahahahaha 

[Pinsair]

i'm an atheist. went to a cathoilc high school and had to take religion classes for 5 long years. while i hated it at the time, i'm kind of glad that i now have a general understanding of the catholic faith. if anything it has made me a stronger atheist than i was.

IMO a large part of religion was a way of explaining the mysteries of the world which science now explains for us. as far as believing there is an eternal being watching over us and so forth, if thats what some people need to believe in order to live a good life then so be it. but I for one dont need to follow some ancient scripture to tell me how to live my life, i have my own morals and values and do what i personally think is right.

i dont think anyone should live their lives the way they do because of the threat that they might go to hell or spend years in purgatory in an afterlife. this is your life, live it up... my 2 cents

[FalconGuy]

come on rich, we all know that i, noss, am your lord and god and antrx.com is our kingdom

Well "God"...Where are my 21 promised Virgins for when I entered these promised lands

[noss]

oh.. they were for you guys? sorry about that

[Jono]

I for one dont need to follow some ancient scripture to tell me how to live my life, i have my own morals and values and do what i personally think is right.

I believe, and have done for a few years now, that I don't need a book to tell me how to run my life. I made up my own commonsense morals and even though they are much the same as what is written in the bible, I didn't need a book to dictate them to me.

IMO religion was invented to give people morals, people who couldn't make up their own mind on what is right and wrong. Religion works very well with those people because they already have the sheep mentality, and to use a common example of a drug abuser who is reformed by religion, he started on drugs because all his friends were doing it, they turned out not to be so great friends, and now he's looking to the church because all these other people have got these really great results from it.

I don't mean that religious people are all sheep. There are a great lot of people out there who don't follow the herd so to speak, but still need religion to give them some direction, whatever it may be.

[Resin]

Things i hate about religion ...............

not in any particular order....

1. America,
2. Middle East,
3. terrorism,
4. 800 people dying in a religious day march being crushed to death (what the hell!!), (yesterday)
5. religion being forced upon us at school,
6. Having to bring a note in to say we dont want to go to the religious seminar at school,
7. Mormans
8. Wars - not all are started because of this but more alot are .......
i have prob for gotten alot of other stuff ..but thats all that come to mind at the moment.

i dont mind religious people ...but just dont go a try and preach to me esp when u dont want to listen to what i have to say .......
and i like old churches .......hehe cause they look good ......architecturally.......
this is going stir it up a bit ....

[xxcbonexx]

Elaboration on why America is on the list? Just curious on what outsiders think on the matter. My brains too fried to ask exactly what Im trying to get at, can't find the words ya know.

(and oh yeah, its mormOns. not to be nit picky, i just got a whole family of 'em)

[noss]

Elaboration on why America is on the list? Just curious on what outsiders think on the matter. My brains too fried to ask exactly what Im trying to get at, can't find the words ya know.

(and oh yeah, its mormOns. not to be nit picky, i just got a whole family of 'em)

i think its because just like americans are led to believe we have koalas and kangaroos in our backyards we are lead to believe that the entire population of america are religious fanatics.

[Resin]

i think its because just like americans are led to believe we have koalas and kangaroos in our backyards we are lead to believe that the entire population of america are religious fanatics.

yes i know not all americans are religious fanatics but there ....just seems alot of them ...and they are lead by one ......

[xxcbonexx]

Yes, well I dont know how it is comparitively with the world, but we do have a large share of wacko bible thumpers. I lived on the fringes of our "Bible Belt" for a while. Scary scary stuff.

The fact that our president is who he is (wacko bible thumping moron) disturbs a large portion of the population here. The fact that he was elected is more disturbing.

[AzDoG]

I think the entire debate will never end, people have their ideals and beliefs, but people have to be open minded that there are alternative views out there, just as different countries have different laws that put a higher emphesis on some things others don't believe in (eg. indo drug laws). people in general get rowed up over things, religion has been on the burner for centuries simply because it was the easiest thing to argue about.

It was explained best in the movie Dogma where Rufus the 13th Apostle explains how when a religious ideal becomes a belief, all hell breaks loose, pardon pun.

probably most of the population have their own ideas about religion, its these few groups that have received too much power and preach, nobody likes preaching, and in MOST cases it would take a very insecure person to change their ideals (or beliefs) because of it

[Jono]

It was explained best in the movie Dogma where Rufus the 13th Apostle explains how when a religious ideal becomes a belief, all hell breaks loose, pardon pun.

That movie is great. It pokes fun at most aspects of the christian religion (or more specifically, the bible) while still not trying to disprove it.

[RichTRX]

I went to a book study with my girlfriend last night (I usually go to these every week) and I find it very sad that some of the people there are so indoctrinated.Without religion, some of them would be literally helpless and aimless in life. Maybe in the case of those people, religion is something that gives them a real purpose to life. This is why I don't try and argue with them. What would it really do to them if I proved beyond any reasonable doubt that their religion - their purpose in life - was wrong? Why would I do that anyway? For the sake of being right?

There's a line you have to draw between being right and deeply hurting someone. If they're truly happy with their religion, and they're not trying to force it on others, then good for them.

[noss]

There's a line you have to draw between being right and deeply hurting someone. If they're truly happy with their religion, and they're not trying to force it on others, then good for them.

yep, definately. i've got no problem with people views as long as it keeps them happy and they dont try force it on me.

[ashman01]

yep, definately. i've got no problem with people views as long as it keeps them happy and they dont try force it on me.

COuldnt have said it better myself. I cant wait untill i get a house and the first johas witnesses come to my place. Im gona have some fun

[RichTRX]

Just remember, JW's do believe in what they preach and they're probably way better equipped to debate theology than you are. Credit where it's due. They are good people on the whole and most of them honestly believe that when they do the door-to-door preaching that they are doing "god's work" or "the good work" or "spreading the good news". If you have a problem with them, I'd suggest you take it up with the people who are really causing the problem - the Watchtower Society.

I could drone on forever about failed predictions on their behalf (they adamantly stated that the world would end in 1874, 1878, 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925 and they believed it would end in 1975), the thousands of peoplea who have died following the Watchtower society's view on blood transfusions, and the masses of evidence that the Watchtower a) does not know what it is talking about b) does not even follow the Bible on many accounts c) twists what the Bible really says (which most of the time is quite vague anyway) and d) uses its considerable leverage among faithful JW's to turn people against each other as it sees fit. For instance, I've seen parents totally disown their own children because they decided that the JW way of life wasn't for them. It's disgusting and yet this "Jehovah's people vs wordly people" - (pretty much everyone who isn't a JW) is almost an integral part of their doctrines and the amount of sheer pain, suffering and segregation it has caused among people is very sad indeed.

I know hundreds of Jehovah's Witnesses and I've met very few who aren't good people inside. They're just doing what they think is right (and more to the point, what they're told is right, and what they're harassed into doing more and more of). Take this into account when you're talking to them, and be tactful, not hurtful. It's hard work to go around door-to-door only to be told to piss off half the time. (Take it from me, I did charity collections once). Just be nice!!!

[ehh]

same here, and I don't get why so many people need religion, especially religions based on books written so many years ago.

people need religions because without them life is meaningless, there's nothing after death,  and we're completely insignifcant!!!


i think it's pretty damn obvious why so many people turn to religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



all that said , i'm happy enough having a meaningless,short lived, insignificant life

[noss]

COuldnt have said it better myself. I cant wait untill i get a house and the first johas witnesses come to my place. Im gona have some fun

thats not exactly respecting their choices though. all you have to say is no i'm not interested.

[ashman01]

I know hundreds of Jehovah's Witnesses and I've met very few who aren't good people inside. They're just doing what they think is right (and more to the point, what they're told is right, and what they're harassed into doing more and more of). Take this into account when you're talking to them, and be tactful, not hurtful. It's hard work to go around door-to-door only to be told to piss off half the time. (Take it from me, I did charity collections once). Just be nice!!!

I do plan on being nice and chalanging what they beleive in and at noss, it is respecting their choices becuase im not telling them not to be JW's im just asking alot of Why's. I find religous people interesting and like to find out why they do the things they do for beliefs they have. nothing is wrong in my eyes unless it affects other people.

About 1-2 years ago some JW's dragged their extremly thirsty 3-4yr old daughter up my huge drive way which is about 200meters long and about 5-10meters high and then when they got to my parents house they picked the panting kid up and pinched it on the skin to make her cry and then started telling my mother why they needed money for their faith. My mum told them to shut up. Gave the kid a glass of water and told em they should be ashamed of themselves for dragging the kid along then told em where to go.

Its people like that i am against.

[RichTRX]

I can tell you flat out right now if you try to debate any of their doctrines with them, you'll be made to feel foolish. Trust me. If you're going to debate with them, do a hell of a lot of research on them first.

I have done countless hours of research on them, and I'm not going to try to debate with them.  Even though sometimes I'd love to say: "How can you believe that when this this this this", but sometimes it's just best to look the other way. You don't want to hurt people.

[noss]

I do plan on being nice and chalanging what they beleive in and at noss

sorry when you said you were going to have fun i assumed you'd do stupid shit to them like so many other people do.

[VladIvanovic]

Sorry for quoting so much, didnt have time to check the forums so this post had gone from like 1 to 4 pages in a week!

I do know that the Christian Church quite often reads from the New Testament however, when something like th 10% Tithe comes into play, back to the Old Testament they all good. Look at places like South America, where the draconian style of the Catholic church there still holds the peasents to their tithe, regardless of all other circumstances.

There are readings of tithing in the new testament, although I dont know the exact scriptures (I'm not an avid reader I just go to church and play drums [well played] for them)but yeah even myself I have found that there are some things either twisted around or read in different contexts or people go picking what they feels best
this is something I'm against even within my church, because it shows people are greedy enough to only expect good and not the bad just because they pray more or something yet they say "we were created by God with a wonderful plan and purpose for our lives"

Its something we have to live with, even non-religious people do it all the time, we do things to make it easier for us, for us to have more fun, etc disregarding most other people, it human nature really.

The massive company, Hillsong Church, located in Sydney I believe (Aside from its turnover of Millions of Dollars) also counts among its 'flock' on more than one occasion: John Howard, Peter Costello, Tony Abbot and Kim Beazley.

Lol you really know your stuff
if you watched on ABC not to long ago they actually featured Pastor Brian Houston in a half hour show called Australian Story, and it was brought up all the money and stuff like that and whats done with it,
and yes they are a non-profit orginisation where the funds they recieve then go bam straight back into the church and other projects such as Hillsong United (youth group), Hillsong conferences (They have atleast 3 per year) flying more preachers in, all sorts of things. Theyre good people not doorknockers or anything it more word of mouth and the way they produce their services with excellence in muscianship and so forth that makes them of quality, as well as the character behind lots of people within the church.

I think the entire debate will never end, people have their ideals and beliefs, but people have to be open minded that there are alternative views out there, just as different countries have different laws that put a higher emphesis on some things others don't believe in (eg. indo drug laws). people in general get rowed up over things, religion has been on the burner for centuries simply because it was the easiest thing to argue about.

It was explained best in the movie Dogma where Rufus the 13th Apostle explains how when a religious ideal becomes a belief, all hell breaks loose, pardon pun.

probably most of the population have their own ideas about religion, its these few groups that have received too much power and preach, nobody likes preaching, and in MOST cases it would take a very insecure person to change their ideals (or beliefs) because of it

Yay! someone who agrees with people needing to be open minded. but open minded doesnt mean dabble in this, i think people should try a personal involvement in it, if your so sure about science, then obviously you can make yourself vulernable to religion knowing that it wont convert you, and vice versa!

and about the preaching line... nothing wrong with it, its what most youth groups/churches do, its how a service is done basically and your one of the first ive heard to complain. But if your talking about preaching as in Jehovahs, well yeah thats over the top. Theres a limit to what should be done and unfortunately because there are so many denominations, they cant be united as one church to be able to do the same things and not do things like door knocking which discredits the religion in a whole.

I went to a book study with my girlfriend last night (I usually go to these every week) and I find it very sad that some of the people there are so indoctrinated.Without religion, some of them would be literally helpless and aimless in life. Maybe in the case of those people, religion is something that gives them a real purpose to life. This is why I don't try and argue with them. What would it really do to them if I proved beyond any reasonable doubt that their religion - their purpose in life - was wrong? Why would I do that anyway? For the sake of being right?

There's a line you have to draw between being right and deeply hurting someone. If they're truly happy with their religion, and they're not trying to force it on others, then good for them.

Rich your my fav atleast you show consideration for your girlfriend and try to get involved even though its something you displease, see you'd be the type of person that a religious person would be, just without the faith in God or a God!
but you say you dont wanna hurt them by what you say, but just out of curiosity, what would you say to them? what if they were able to throw something back at you? its great to see you have confidence and knowledge in what your on about tho!

[FalconGuy]

if you watched on ABC not to long ago they actually featured Pastor Brian Houston in a half hour show called Australian Story, and it was brought up all the money and stuff like that and whats done with it,
and yes they are a non-profit orginisation where the funds they recieve then go bam straight back into the church and other projects such as Hillsong United (youth group), Hillsong conferences (They have atleast 3 per year) flying more preachers in, all sorts of things. Theyre good people not doorknockers or anything it more word of mouth and the way they produce their services with excellence in muscianship and so forth that makes them of quality, as well as the character behind lots of people within the church.

They are using the terms 'Non Profit Organisation' and 'Religious Organisation' to flaunt many Tax laws in our country.

So they make money, then they invest it back into themselves, to make them more popular and bigger....to make more money...to invest back into themselves, or do they buy bibles to give to starving kids in Africa like many other Christian organisation do? Or perhaps they send missionaries (like the young Kim Beazley) to India to try and convert people living in squalor to Christianity?

They are a business, I am sorry, however it's veiled; whatever show they put on!


If you have followed the ABC as a broadcaster, you would have seen the shift in the core 'belief' of the ABC since the WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) Right Wing Howard era. The ABC always is and always has been the tool of the governemnt on either side and when I hear of the ABC doing a puff piece on Hillsong, it dissapoints me.



Brendan

[Jono]

One thing ive never understood, whats a few hours out of your sunday? Why not make sure? but then again I suppose most of you would say, But what if buddah, or what if Allah, so ill leave that there before a few of you others decide to Negate my Karma down further

Is this targeted at the atheists, the agnostics or the believers (of other religions)?

I think the only people this would apply to would be agnostic, as atheists believe there are no deities and the believers believe in their own thing, but the agnostic are not sure what to believe, so would be gathering as much information as they can about different religions and/or atheism.

[Pinsair]

One thing ive never understood, whats a few hours out of your sunday? Why not make sure? but then again I suppose most of you would say, But what if buddah, or what if Allah, so ill leave that there before a few of you others decide to Negate my Karma down further

i dont think you understand what an atheists is. i believe there is no god/afterlife/whatever, so theres no "making sure".  "A few hours on sunday" i can enjoy sleeping or go and sit on a hard wooden bench and  listen to someone preach about something i dont believe in.

[VladIvanovic]

i dont think you understand what an atheists is. i believe there is no god/afterlife/whatever, so theres no "making sure".�  "A few hours on sunday" i can enjoy sleeping or go and sit on a hard wooden bench and�  listen to someone preach about something i dont believe in.

hrmm i see your point of few i guess

oh and falconguy i never follow ABC i only watched it this once but yeah most churches obviously have to re-invest in themselves, how are you going to run events, pay for electricity bills and other maintenance within a church if you have no money. and sure you can think its a scam and whatever but it is what it is. When you think about it, by the time theyve paid the bills theres not that much left over really, i know the way hillsongs pastor would have made his cash would have been through like the 10 or so books he wrote, and then hence advertised obviously through his church, that does sound organised... but maybe its just smart, everyone needs to get an income somehow, and lots of people play the tax man anyways.

and Jono my point was to both both atheists and other believers, cause as its been pointed out, if you havent been on both sides of the fence, its a tad unfair to be commenting. I know from my personal experience i have been on both, i just favoured one more than the other, why im not sure but to each his own!

i myself arent here to try to convert people, but rather atleast softens people view of religion or faith being so harsh and that its not all these crap things that people hear it to be. Theres definetely positives of living within both atheistic views and faith, but its a persons own personal decision. I know plenty of people that have come to a youth group or church and not been converted just because it wasnt there thing, and thats life

[Jono]

and Jono my point was to both both atheists and other believers, cause as its been pointed out, if you havent been on both sides of the fence, its a tad unfair to be commenting. I know from my personal experience i have been on both, i just favoured one more than the other, why im not sure but to each his own!

i myself arent here to try to convert people, but rather atleast softens people view of religion or faith being so harsh and that its not all these crap things that people hear it to be. Theres definetely positives of living within both atheistic views and faith, but its a persons own personal decision. I know plenty of people that have come to a youth group or church and not been converted just because it wasnt there thing, and thats life

IMO if you don't strongly believe in the basics of a religion (or atheism) you shouldn't be classed as a follower of that religion. Therefore, if you are either a true atheist or a true believer of another religion, you will be wasting your time to go to a service or youth group, unless you're going for the social aspect.

I have 'been on both sides of the fence'. I took a good look at christianity a couple of years ago, but I didn't find anything to relate to. Each to his own.

IMO anyone who doesn't strongly believe in any particular religion is agnostic.

[noss]

i've been on both sides of the fence too. i know where i'm staying.

i also think its ammusing how there was nothing quoted and commented on about me and my intellectual interest in satanism.

[Jono]

i also think its ammusing how there was nothing quoted and commented on about me and my intellectual interest in satanism.

I'm interested in most religions. The original question is just something my dad brought up over dinner one night and I thought I'd see what everyone had to say about it.

I guess my interest in religion carries on from my interest in human nature and behaviour. I remember Narxysus saying in one of his threads that he only starts them because he is interested in how they develop and the interaction between the different opinions expressed in the thread. I started this thread for much the same reason, and then crossed my fingers and hoped that it wouldn't turn into a flame-fest.

[Febrile]

i also think its ammusing how there was nothing quoted and commented on about me and my intellectual interest in satanism.

Satanism is a religious, semi-religious and/or philosophical movement whose adherents recognize Satan, either as an archetype, literal being, pre-cosmic force, or anything in between. Some Satanists celebrate aspects of human nature represented by the usually Christian or literary (Milton, Goethe) Satan archetype. Many Satanists do not worship a deity called Satan or any other deity. Unlike many religions and philosophies, Satanism generally focuses upon the spiritual advancement of the self, rather than upon submission to a deity or a set of moral codes.

...yawn! Where's the bloody Crusades?  The suicidal fanatics?

I think as soon as you said you don't worship Satan and sacrifice lambs and unborn children every other week, you may have lost your captive audience, noss 

[Jono]

I think as soon as you said you don't sacrifice lambs and unborn children every other week, you may have lost your captive audience, noss

He doesn't need to perform the sacrifices, for he is our god and holy master. 

[r31vhead]

IMO if you don't strongly believe in the basics of a religion (or atheism) you shouldn't be classed as a follower of that religion. Therefore, if you are either a true atheist or a true believer of another religion, you will be wasting your time to go to a service or youth group, unless you're going for the social aspect.

That's an interesting point you bring up. But since Atheism specifically doesn't follow any deity or bible, how do you define a "true atheist"?

Having said that, I am now going to proclaim that I am a very big follower of Atheism. I remember attending Catholic church when very young, and I've worked in a small business where every other worker took their (Christian) faith very seriously. But they have only really served to strengthen my belief that life is as we see it, as boring as that sounds. And when we die, we die, as much as we might like to think to the contrary.

Michael

[Jono]

That's an interesting point you bring up. But since Atheism specifically doesn't follow any deity or bible, how do you define a "true atheist"?

You've half answered the question yourself.

Atheism is not a religion, it is the lack of a religion. Atheists don't "not believe in a god", that's agnostic. Atheists believe there is not a god.

[RichTRX]

Rich your my fav �  atleast you show consideration for your girlfriend and try to get involved even though its something you displease, see you'd be the type of person that a religious person would be, just without the faith in God or a God!
but you say you dont wanna hurt them by what you say, but just out of curiosity, what would you say to them? what if they were able to throw something back at you? its great to see you have confidence and knowledge in what your on about tho!

I love my girlfriend so naturally I'm going to show respect for something that means so much to her. It is hard for me though - what do I say when she asks "so do you believe any of this?" I have to be honest with her in the most loving way I can.

I try to avoid religious arguments because it's a bit of a lost cause. It's just two people trying to prove the point to each other, niether of them backing down. Seeing as you ask though, I would bring up matters of sheer evidence.

-If god performed so many miracles in the past, why does he not perform them now? Some would say that he still does, but when was the last time you saw the sea part and people walking along the bottom of it?

-The proof for evolution is growing stronger every day. While this does not disprove that there is a god, it certainly disproves the genesis chaper.

-Circular reasoning that most Christians seem to use, such as: "The Bible is true because it says it's true and we believe it" proves absolutely nothing.

-If early Christians thought the world was spherical, as many religions point out as "proof that the Bible was written by god", why did Satan lead Jesus to the top of a mountain where he "could see all the kingdoms of the earth" when this is only physically possible if the earth was flat? --A common rebuttal of this is that the Bible is only speaking figuratively. If this is true, how many other scriptures that religious organisations cite as "proofs" are in fact figurative?

-If armageddon was "just around the corner" 2465 years ago, is it still just around the corner? Some people think that 1 year on Earth equals 1 day in heaven. Whether this is true or not, even god must be getting a bit impatient after 2465 days of waiting...

-If Adam and Eve were the first two people, then had a son, then another son, then another son, and then their son got married and had a son... hang on... who did he marry again?

-As I mentioned earlier, the Bible makes no reference to dinosaurs or any prehistoric animal. Could this be because they simply didn't know about them? Certainly god would have known about them, but if god wrote the Bible, why did he not make reference to them? They are quite a significant item in the planet's history. This of course would also mean that the time between the fifth day (when he created animals) and sixth day (when he created man) spanned around 150-200 million years!! I've read many Christian websites that attempt to answer this and most tend to side-step the issue and say something to the effect of: "god's creation of the earth was supernatural so we can't understand it with our finite minds". This is not a satisfactory answer.

-The same thing can be said about the stars, created on the fourth day. If god said let there be light, and there was light, on the first day, what exactly was making the light? The sun as we all know, is a star.

-There is no evidence of a great flood in the last 3000 years. It has been shown to be possible that a boat the size of Noah's ark could hold what it said it held (albeit by following extremely strict - and controversial - guidelines) but what of all the plant matter? Most land plants cannot survive underwater for more than a few days.

This is just what I can think of in about 15 minutes. The more I think about it, the more inconsistencies pop up in my mind. I'm not trying to convert anyone here - I'm just showing that my reasons for not believing in any organised religion don't come from nowhere. I haven't made up my mind about a higher power over everything else, but suffice to say that I don't need any proof that there is one - I only need to look at things that are special to me - animals, birds, my girlfriend, all the good things I see being done, the wonderful natural places to go in the world...

To quote an ad on tv at the moment: "But religion? Nah."

[thumbtack]

He doesn't need to perform the sacrifices, for he is our god and holy master.

and he has a big penis.   *growls*

[Febrile]

-The same thing can be said about the stars, created on the fourth day. If god said let there be light, and there was light, on the first day, what exactly was making the light? The sun as we all know, is a star.

I was thinking just last night... doesn't the bible/christianity etc refer to earth as the place for humanity?  If so, what happens to the people who are born and die on Mars (if we ever colonise there)?  Can they even go to heaven or hell, given they aren't from the land god created?

[Dano Da Bomb]

Dude thats a silly question

[Jono]

God created the universe, so he created Mars. It wasn't designed to support human life because it wasn't the planet that God put humans on

[Jtas]

Mars is a chocolate bar, man never landed on the moon and heaven is in the clouds.

[Febrile]

Dude thats a silly question

That's great, I'm really glad you think so.  My day is all the more complete, and my life all the more fulfilling.

God created the universe, so he created Mars. It wasn't designed to support human life because it wasn't the planet that God put humans on

So the same rules are supposed to apply all over the universe?  What about to other forms of life?  Plants, animals, life we haven't classified as life yet?

I'm a total non-Christian, I went to church like four times when I was little, and did one scripture lesson in school in my entire life.  All I know is you're not supposed to piss God off, Moses was a hydrotechnician, Noah was a nautical vehicle construction expert and Jesus was from a single parent family and impressed a lot of people.

[Dano Da Bomb]

 All I know is you're not supposed to piss God off, Moses was a hydrotechnician, Noah was a nautical vehicle construction expert and Jesus was from a single parent family and impressed a lot of people.

 

[noss]

-The same thing can be said about the stars, created on the fourth day. If god said let there be light, and there was light, on the first day, what exactly was making the light? The sun as we all know, is a star.

dude! havent you heard of flood lights?

[BoGAn]

Hmm. It seems that the bible indirectly promotes inbreeding and incest. Why you say? Well:

-If Adam and Eve were the first two people, then had a son, then another son, then another son, and then their son got married and had a son... hang on... who did he marry again?

-There is no evidence of a great flood in the last 3000 years. It has been shown to be possible that a boat the size of Noah's ark could hold what it said it held (albeit by following extremely strict - and controversial - guidelines) but what of all the plant matter? Most land plants cannot survive underwater for more than a few days.

There you go. If Adam and eve's sons (Cain and Abel are'nt they?) had sons, by default they must have gotten off with eve as she was the only female around at the time. Then their incest-born offspring must have procreated in order to fill the earth with more inbred kids than tasmania, finally resulting in us here today. So we are all children of incest. Yay.

This continues on with animals and the story of Noahs ark. Only two of each kind of animal were present to repopulate the earth. So all animals must be products of inbreeding as well.

Maybe there was a bloke with a big boat that went sailing after a flood many moons ago, hell im sure a lot of people in New Orleans wouldnt have minded an ark or two, but he sure as hell didnt save the entire animal knigdom.

People that take the bible as a literal, factual piece of evidence as you would in the case of historical facts are twats, but if it helps you be a nice peson and get more out of life that completely fine. Its when they start pushing it on others that it pisses me off.

[Dano Da Bomb]

they actually found a boat in the Arabic desert which is apparently form that time but carbon dating is know en to be off by a few hundred years

[thumbtack]

There you go. If Adam and eve's sons (Cain and Abel are'nt they?) had sons, by default they must have gotten off with eve as she was the only female around at the time. Then their incest-born offspring must have procreated in order to fill the earth with more inbred kids than tasmania, finally resulting in us here today. So we are all children of incest. Yay.

sorry to nitpick but cain and abel were the sons of isaac and rebecca. and cain killed abel. i think. maybe abel killed cain. i dunno im not even religious!

anyway, it was commonplace in ancient societies to inbreed. they figured that was the best way to get a pure blood line. many royal families work that way. especially the ancient egyptians. they figured it would turn out the perfect child.

[BoGAn]

sorry to nitpick but cain and abel were the sons of isaac and rebecca. and cain killed abel. i think. maybe abel killed cain. i dunno im not even religious!

anyway, it was commonplace in ancient societies to inbreed. they figured that was the best way to get a pure blood line. many royal families work that way. especially the ancient egyptians. they figured it would turn out the perfect child.

Thats fine, o lover of nossages I wasnt sure and they were the only two biblical brothers that I could think of.

Yup, i know about royal inbreeding. We used the royal family tree in genetics a couple years back. Good old hemophillia is the result of that. However without knowing any science/genetics its understandable why they would think that

[KatieSmurf]

There are a lot of things that are accentuated when there is imbreeding - haemophilia isn't caused by imbreeding, but it certainly turns up a lot more often. There are people that have haemophilia that aren't the child of siblings

There's a lot of stuff in this thread that I could reply to, but I can't be bothered going back and quoting it all. To answer the original question, it's my opinion that anyone who purports to be a follower of a religion should know a bit more about it then "We all go to this big building once a week and there's this cool guy with wispy hair." or, to present a totally different religion, "There's a Godess as well as a God and sex is good and it's all so peaceful and loving and oh-so-awesome *squee*". I think that 'know the bible' is a bit of an ambiguous phrase, because it implies a word for word knowledge, and I'm not sure that you were trying to say that. Please correct me if you were.

I do think, though, that it is useful to have a basic understanding of any religion that you are choosing to accept, and I went so far as to gather a basic knowledge of quite a few religions that I chose to reject, as well. Being informed is the key, in my opinion, to making sound decisions.

For the record, I'm pagan (but probably not in the sense of the word that springs to mind for most people). And Noss, as far as I'm concerned, Satan was the coolest guy in Genesis. If you put any credence in the creation story, then Satan is the liberator of mankind.

~Katie
Smurf-girl, who is back from a very long hiatus

[Jono]

I think that 'know the bible' is a bit of an ambiguous phrase, because it implies a word for word knowledge, and I'm not sure that you were trying to say that. Please correct me if you were.

I was wanting it to be ambiguous, I'm interested in what people make of the question, as well as their answers to it.

I do think, though, that it is useful to have a basic understanding of any religion that you are choosing to accept

Agreed. I think I have hinted at this in some of my posts. You don't need to know the bible/holy scriptures word-for-word, but you do need a basic understanding of the religion you choose to follow.

Smurf-girl, who is back from a very long hiatus

Welcome back

[eurisko]

Being an athiest, and this being one of my favorite topics, I feel the need to have my 2 cents...

To be an athiest, or to be a (non)believer of a religion, i believe you MUST have a knowledge of somesort of what you believe (or dont). Without the fundamental knowledge, you are leading yourself into a realm of deception and mis-information.

Being a soon-to-be engineer, I have based my life on science and logical reasoning. Evolution holds true for many instances, but also fails in the most important aspects. I believe there is a scientific reasoning for everything, and what we cannot explain yet, will be eventually discovered.

Now, there are many problems with todays religions in my view. I dont want to criticise any one religion in particular, but speak in general terms. Many religions have the tendancy to say, Believe this without question, or you will goto hell! Maybe not in those words, but generally. To me this is contrary to the spirit of mankind... the freedom to question. Being raised in a Roman Catholic family, it was obvious to me that there are far to many inconsistancies to say there is a All Powerful God.

The culminating point for me was when the first time i heard of countries like Uganda, Somalia, Congo (Republic of) etc etc.... where litterally Thousands upon thousands of innocent children die everyday from disease, hunger, mutiliation... To try to convince me that there is a reason, and it is justifiable by saying "God works in mysterious ways..." for this innocent suffering... Is completley unnacceptable. Just think, for one second... what it would be like to be born in a country where for your entire life.... all two years of it if you are lucky... where all you know is the feeling of starvation, disease, and your only salvation is Death. To tell me that this is Gods plan, there is a reason for it, im sorry to say, God has one fuc-ed up sence of humor. Then tell me the story of the good old american Joe and his Middle class family, who on a Vacation to the Colorado mountains in their AirConditioned SUV, by a Miracle of god, survied a Car accident.... Tell me there is a Caring, compassionate, and caring God.

I dont need to get into the history of the world.... there is enough evidence in todays society to tell me there is no Justice.

Most religious people will say, well, God gave us free will, and this is how we use it, so its our fault, not the Lords. That is the same excuse people have been using for thousands of years to Justify and remove all feelings of guilt and responsability.

And just to say one last thing before I take this a step too far... Every act under the name of the Lord in human history (The Crusaids, The Discovery of the New World etc etc) is just an excuse to Conquer, pilage, Rape, and steal land and property. Modern day society has played this down... but just go back in time... its all about this $

Damn.... i talk too much....

Feel free to reply on my views, its 1am here, and i may have muttered utter nonsense...lol

I need sleep!

PEACE

Ed

[ehh]

thanks for that post eurisko ...that's almost exactly the way i feel about most of the things you brought up......so now since you've said it and i'm lazy ,,, i need say nothing(well i could add to it, but meh, not now lazy)

[Dano Da Bomb]

dude you hit the nail right on the head 

[RichTRX]

It's important to point out that it's mostly the church based religions that say: "It was god's will" when something bad happens. A lot of religions - the Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, have been built out of the sheer inadequacy of the church to formulate an answer to this. I know that the JW's for instance, say that it was not god's will at all, and that it was in fact Satan, trying to make us think that it was god's will, so that we will no longer be faithful to god (or Jehovah as they call him, which is mispronounced anyway).

I don't believe it is god's plan or his "loving arrangement" that the world is how it is today, but I don't believe in Armageddon either. I believe that we've f*cked up the world and now we have to fix it or we're all f*cked. As much as I hate to say it, when the world's oil supplies run out, it will be a good thing for the planet. It will force us to use something different, something that is hopefully a lot more environmentally friendly.

I don't personally think god is going to fix anything - not in our lifetime, not in our childrens lifetimes, never. All we have is earth and if we stuff it up we're all out of a place to live, air to breathe and food to eat. Simple as that. If we rely on the hope that god is one day going to clean things up, nothing's ever going to get done here and now.

[eurisko]

Just to clarify on one thing about my last post and my views on religion in general...

Although I am an atheist, I am not AGAINST religion in any way. In fact, contrary to what you may believe, I think religion is something that has allowed the people of earth to advance and civilise themselves. Being of Native American - Spanish heritage, I am well aware of what the native Americans were doing before the Spanish conquistadors came into town and pig-whipped the natives into a catholic submission! The Aztecs were sacrificing virgins to appease the gods every day of the week, as were the Mayans and Incas. Drug abuse, polygamy, cannibalism, and basically satisfying every basic human urge were rampant, and went with little to no restraint. When the Spanish arrived, granted they did rape and pillage, but they also brought in Law and Order to the land, allowing the civilizations to expand and prosper further, other than heading into stagnation.

That is the beauty of religion. It brings an order into society. Rules, Regulations and structure, which limit what we WANT to do, to what we can ONLY do. Otherwise, we'd all be high, stealing, raping, eating chaotic miscreants with no direction or need for improvement. Why work hard, when u can steal? Dont like that person over there? KILL HIM! Think that girl looks really hot? Just Rape her! <--- these are some of the basic human desires that are nullified by religion.

The Old Testament is a funny little book. It basically describes what i just said, but in a more vulgar, blunt, and violent way. lol... Judges is a nice section.... As is the story of Lot, and the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (spelt correctly?)

So why arent I a gun totting, thieving, ruthless and soulless SOB? I was fortunate enough to replace my "Faith" with science, and fortunate to have a father who ingrained the moral fibers deep within me. Unfortunately some people dont have that luck, so religion is a very important tool to have.

Just to expand on an earlier post (sorry i dont remember where i read it... 3 or 4 pages back...), the idea that people need religion to give them a purpose, meaning and hope in their lives is a funny little thing.

Analyze what a human, or any animal for that matter, is, in very primitive terms. The entire purpose for the human structure or form to exist, is to be a transportation medium for DNA, the building blocks. All animals exist to grow up, breed, and die. Humans are no different... the only reason we think we are different is the fact that we can think. Its a very harsh reality to comprehend, and with a brain capacity so large its useless in terms of evolution theory (one point where it breaks down majorly), another reason needs to be found. Religion gives us this... God has a plan for us, we have a purpose for living... so we can live our lives content with the fact that one day, you will have pleased the All Mighty, and you can die happily knowing you are going to heaven.

Religion also gives many people hope. Hope that things will get better, will work out, and everything is meant to be.

I personally think it keeps the mind stable, otherwise many will fall into a deep depression, which is a very dangerous state.

But, through the eyes of an atheist, and an engineer, I have a saying.....

Hope is for the unprepared

But thats all i have to say.... for now... lol
Is it just me, or do i have nothing better to do at 2am??

Keep it real

Ed

[ehh]

that's all very true.... except for when u mentioned they used to sacrifice virgins to appease there gods...that itself was obviously because of religion in the first place(all be it a different one)

[Jono]

...
Religion also gives many people hope. Hope that things will get better, will work out, and everything is meant to be.

I personally think it keeps the mind stable, otherwise many will fall into a deep depression, which is a very dangerous state.
...

These are probably the only reasons religions are so popular in society today.

Any kind of serious depression is a very serious state (speaking from experience). People need a purpose in life.

[eurisko]

...  People need a purpose in life.

Ahh true, but does that mean we all need religion? I personally believe Self Motivation is enough reason to get up in the morning without any thoughts of "where am i going in life?" or "what is my purpose?" popping into my head. Unfortunately not everyone can have this mentality, because u need to have a very strong mind to be able to cope with it.

The world is very cruel, and harsh. Religion gives people the tool to handle and overcome it.

[Jono]

Ahh true, but does that mean we all need religion?

No, as for the rest of your post, well said. I am one of those people who doesn't think "where am I going in life", simply because I don't really care. I want to have fun, while making my future as liveable as possible.

[RichTRX]

while I certainly do care where I'm going in life, and I do feel that a sense of spiritual awareness is a good thing, and in the most part is lacking from today's society, I do not think, nor have I ever thought, that organised religion is the answer.

sorry to nitpick but cain and abel were the sons of isaac and rebecca. and cain killed abel. i think. maybe abel killed cain. i dunno im not even religious!

anyway, it was commonplace in ancient societies to inbreed. they figured that was the best way to get a pure blood line. many royal families work that way. especially the ancient egyptians. they figured it would turn out the perfect child.

wtf? where did you pull that from? Cain and Abel were the sons of Adam and Eve get your Bible out and look at the Genesis book - it's there in black and white. If Isaac and Rebecca did indeed have sons called Cain and Abel, which I don't believe they did, that's irrelevant - BoGAn was referring to Adam and Eve's sons.

Furthermore, the Bible only shows that Adam and Eve had any daughters at all, afterSeth was born. This was after Abel was killed by Cain, which was after Cain was married, hence my point of where did the females come from in the first place? We can read into it as much as we like, but the only way to make any sense out of it is to a) add to the bible, which the bible itself says not to do, or b) say the bible has to be wrong. The problem with many religions is that they take the Bible too literally. What then, when we are faced with a problem such as this?

[thumbtack]

gee i am so sorry i am not perfect. i wish i could know everything like you. wanker.

and bogan i am sorry i misled you. i was thinking of Esau and jacob. but im sure YOU knew that rich.

[BoGAn]

No worries�  I guess 12 years of compolsory religion wasnt completely pissed away - I remebered something at least� 

There are a lot of things that are accentuated when there is imbreeding - haemophilia isn't caused by imbreeding, but it certainly turns up a lot more often. There are people that have haemophilia that aren't the child of siblings

Yup thats right, I guess I didnt completely explain myself properly before. Caused probably isnt the right word. Promotes/facilitates is a better substitute. Everyone has two copies of each gene - one from mum and one from dad. They can be slightly different or exactly the same. Sometimes one copy is shithouse and doesnt work, but the other functional gene can pick up the slack. Basically, sowing your seed in a close relative heightens the chance that two defective copies for a given gene will be inherited by the child, as any particular form of a gene has a higher frequency within a family than within the general population. So the closed-circle breeding of royal families promotes genetic diseases by limiting the gene pool. Its just unfortunate that someone upstream introduced the defective Factor VIII gene (required for clotting) into the royal family.

Just to make it more confusing, males only ever have one copy of this gene (from the mother) as its on the X chromosome, of which the male has only one. So thats why many more males have hemophilia than females. Same goes for colour blindness. So if you're colourblind or a hemophiliac, blame your mum� 

If anyones interested in genetic stuff, ive got a few good links floating around somewhere

Anyway, back to religion� 

[FalconGuy]

I was up in Brissy the other day and while in the motel whiling my time away I grabbed the old faithful Gideon from the draw.

Thats what I found very interesting Rich, as you have stated earlier in genesis there is eve and no others...then cain and able are born and then Cain kills Able is banished...still no mention of anyone and then his finds a wife from the (I think) Banished people or something similar?

Also, if you add up the generations betwee A&E first and last child (assuming each successive is child is born at the earliest age of possible conception ie~14) then Eve is something like 75 or 85 or something...Physically impossible for a female. Though not nessecarily a male.

Sorry I am being vauge here but I forget exact phrasings.



Cheers,
Brendan

[RichTRX]

Katie, I wasn't having a go at you, geez. I thought if you were going to nitpick, as you called it, you should at least know the facts. But by all means interpret what I said as you like. I don't care. For the record, I didn't know you were talking about Jacob and Esau.

I've read various interpretations of the point of Eve's age.

The only two logical conclusions I come up with personally are:

a) back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)
b) the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

The main interpretation held by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is that Adam and Eve were close to being perfect, and hence they should have lived forever but because they sinned, they didn't. They still did live a long time though, and if you look at the following chapters in the Genesis account you'll notice that many sons & daughters of Adam & Eve lived to similarly long times. In general, people got less & less perfect and hence lived shorter and shorter lives.

It certainly leaves a lot to be desired. There's no evidence of the lifespans of people "dropping off" progressively through the Genesis book and there's certainly no Biblical explanation for the way human beings are now living longer lives than ever. In fact it is somewhat in contrast to what the bible "prophesied".

It's ok to say we were all meant to live forever, but does anybody really believe that? How can we all live forever? The world is having enough difficulty supporting its current population of human beings, let alone the billions who have died in the past.

[thumbtack]

thats alright. i had a shit day the other day. sorry. i'll even overlook you calling me katie instead of rebecca...

[RichTRX]

oh sh!t... and all these years I thought you were called Katie...  sorry

[chr1S]

She aint katie smurf uleh ! haha

When i first saw this thread made, i avoided it, i read about 5 replies and didn't want to look at it, this topic has brought confusion to me ever since i changed schools and i can sit there hours on end thinking about different views..My previous school was a greek orthodox religion based, which is my religion, i then moved schools as entering high school and my group of mates are basically catholic, greek orthodox and aethiest. Although the ones that beleive arn't exactly as religious as i was/am. They havn't read the bible, been to churce in a very long time..

One lunch time at school, my mates asked me what im doing this sunday, and i had church to go to, they laughed at me and said why you going to that for ? I said it was part of my religion to follow and have faith (i think u don't NEED to go, just have faith and beleive). Then it became a decent conversation on each others thoughts, and me being the smarter one in science etc, i remembered all the theories of the universe, evolution etc..Then compared it with what i have read, and it twisted my brain and thoughts so much i took my cross off. At times i do beleive, at times i feel that it's just a never ending addiction of false belief.

As rich has said, it's not bad to have a sense of spiritual essence in you, i think it's healthy. but it's also healthy to have the mentality to control how you feel and what you do by making your own judgements, not off the bible. Also as rich said, how we don't see the oceans splitting, prophecies are no more ? (esp. on the 2nd coming), the 7 days theory with the sun.. All these things just really show how things are false. You can tell the bible was i spose dare to say this "made-up" by when jesus climbed the hill and could see all the cities, where earth was flat in theory by some ancient astronomers and physicsts (not aristotle, but some of his kind).

Religion and your thoughts really bring break out people's personlaities and in my eyes, Rich i aint seen a guy so down to earth mate, the way you treat your girlfriend is great. Personally i hate seeing thugs playing games with their girlfriends and other girls, it just makes my eyes burn. Only if there was more Rich's in the world ...

[eurisko]

...back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)...
the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

There's no evidence of the lifespans of people "dropping off" progressively through the Genesis book and there's certainly no Biblical explanation for the way human beings are now living longer lives than ever.

Its very very clear in Genesis the life span was steadily declining. For example...

“Kenan lived on for seventy years. Then he became father to
Mahalalel. And after his fathering Mahalale,l Kenan continued to live
eight hundred and forty years. Meanwhile he became father to sons and
daughters. So all the days of Kenan amounted to nine hundred and ten
years and he died. And Mahalalel lived on for sixty-five years. Then
he became father to Jared.” (Gen. 5:12-15)

Using passages like this, its easy to create a list of lifespans...

Adam 930
Seth 912
Enosh 905
Kenan 910
Mahalalel 895
Jared 962
Methuselah 969
Lamech 777
Noah 950
Shem 600
Arpachshad 438
Shelah 433
Eber 464
Peleg 239
Reu 239
Serug 230
Nahor 148
Terah 205
Abraham 175

The idea that they confused months with years, or Lunar Years with solar years is just plain wrong. Otherwise there will be 6 year old fathers running around in the Old Testament!

The idea for eternal life is very simple genetics. It has been proven by experiments using fruit flys.

The basic premise for eternal life is the fact of how cells split. Cells split by making a copy of the DNA strand, then halving the cell body, hence replicating the cell. But, this happens Billions of times, and the same thing happens when u make a photocopy of a photocopy, of a photocopy... It eventually degenerates. This is how we age. Cells arent perfect anymore, and lead to imperfect copies which then lead to breakdown in the cells.

The experiments in fruit flys has lead to an interesting discovery. By breeding fruit flys, by only allowing the ones with the highest life span to breed, led to the discovery that by this selective breeding allowed the flys to live from a life span of 3-5 days, to 2 weeks!! An increase of more than 150% If this was done to humans, the average span will be 175 years!!
This allowed scientists to find the cause of this degeneration in the human cells. In the human DNA strand, there is a kind of "fuse" similar to that of a bomb. Every time the cell replicates, this fuse shortens, untill eventually, the fuse runs out, and allows the DNA strand to breakdown. The longer the fuse, the longer we live. Scientists are in the process of figuring out how to stop this fuse from shortening. Find this out, and we will have eternal life.

Its funny tho, on another point. People who believe in the bible select which portions to take literally and those to take as "just a story". Taking the bible as a literal story leads to some serious contradictions. Taking it as a story, leads to the problem of that it is all fantasy...

[chr1S]

Cells split by making a copy of the DNA strand, then halving the cell body, hence replicating the cell.

Scienftific form, Mitosis .

All i can say is, LOL @ the ages....Sigh, I'd like to have a conversation with a priest one day, just to hear what he has to say.

[BoGAn]

The experiments in fruit flys has lead to an interesting discovery. By breeding fruit flys, by only allowing the ones with the highest life span to breed, led to the discovery that by this selective breeding allowed the flys to live from a life span of 3-5 days, to 2 weeks!! An increase of more than 150% If this was done to humans, the average span will be 175 years!!
This allowed scientists to find the cause of this degeneration in the human cells. In the human DNA strand, there is a kind of "fuse" similar to that of a bomb. Every time the cell replicates, this fuse shortens, untill eventually, the fuse runs out, and allows the DNA strand to breakdown. The longer the fuse, the longer we live. Scientists are in the process of figuring out how to stop this fuse from shortening. Find this out, and we will have eternal life.

Thats a very good explanation.

The fuses are called telomeres, theyre at the end of the cell's chromosomes. They shorten with each replication until the point where they are so short they inhibit the cell from further dividing. This is a safety mechanism which stops cells replicating too many times and thus accumulating many defects.

There is however already a way to stop the 'fuse' from shortening - cancers do it very well - using an enzyme called telomerase. It is normally present in stem cells, allowing them to be 'immortal', but not in normal cells. 80-90% of cancers have elevated telomerase levels. This enzyme allows the cancer cell to bypass normal regulatory mechanisms by repairing the fuse and continuing to divide, causing cancerous growth.

Theres no way in hell id advocate using telomerase as a way of repairing telomeres as a means to eternal life - the potential to introduce all kinds of tumors is too great. Theres a very fine balance between cell death and cancerous growth and the body usually does a good job of regulating this. However research will probably investigate this as a way of prolonging life

Its funny you brought this up Rich, cos theres a high likelyhood ill be working on telomerase inhibition as a novel cancer treatment next year

[STU84W]

i'm going to throw my hat in quickly, because i remember hearing this somewhere (possibly in a movie, so its not original content, but its good to think about).

Consider Mary for a moment.  She has her partner Joseph, who's the carpenter... he's gone a lot of the time, doing all sorts of carpenting related jobs.  so she gets very lonely...  she has an extra-marital affair, and upon discovering that she was pregnant, she knew that she would bring disgrace to her family, and be dishoned by joseph, and possibly the entire community.  for all intensive purposes, she would lose everything.  so what does she do?  she does something so controversial, so unheard of, that it was brilliant.

She claims she was impregnanted by god.

For all we know, Mary was simply a fantastic actor, and coupled with mass hysteria, and a need for the populous to believe and have faith in something, Jesus was born. 

Obviously this idea has a lot of If's and but's, and the argument has as many holes as swiss cheese... but if you consider it for a moment, it could be just that simple

[Jono]

Haha! Finally a sane explanation for the birth of modern christianity! 

I never thought of it that way, but now you mention it, it's so obvious!

[Febrile]

I don't believe in religion or any God, however, I do believe in the existence of higher forms of life.  I find it highly implausible that we are the most advanced (to use the term loosely) living creations in the universe.

You see, I believe in the existence of life which we humans, in our current capacity, can not percieve as life.  One problem with this idea is that the existence of such life can neither be confirmed nor denied - you can't say it doesn't exist, because how can you if you cannot measure or recognise it?  Equally, we cannot prove it exists, because again, we cannot measure or recognise it.

As an example, I would be willing to argue that galaxies are life-forms, and we are mere parts of it.  Consider how atoms and quarks etc are a part of us - why should this not extend further than us?  Why should we assume that our definition of life is the only one?  Perhaps galaxies are sentient beings, but in some other understanding of the word that we do not have.

Thoughts?

[vector]

theres got to be somthing! think about it what was before the big bang? what was before that? and that? and that? im not saying theres a god, but i think its plausable heck anything is.

[NimrodNZ]

Man there are some deep thoughts going into this debate

Heres my two cents

People are scared of the unknown, they need something to explain the worlds mysteries.

And no aetheists don't need to know the Bible!
Do we Nissan drivers need to know how a Vtec works? � 


I like religion, it provides me with entertainment
Then I just go and drive my car

[Jono]

I would be willing to argue that galaxies are life-forms, and we are mere parts of it.

Now, THAT would make sense.

Have you ever realised that everything is made up of smaller parts, each resembling the whole? For example, a living cell is made up of a nucleus, cell wall and some other goop to fill up the gaps. Each part of that cell, the nucleus, cell wall and goop, is made up of atoms, each of them having a number of shells of electrons (equivalent to the cell wall and goop) and a central nucleus. Same basic structure, yes?

Now let's look at a larger level: the planet Earth. There is a crust and different layers of magma, and in the centre, a core of a different material, probably metal. Crust=cell wall, magma=goop, core=nucleus.

Bigger: the earth and the moon, The earth is the nucleus, moon the atoms of the atom.

Even bigger: the solar system, the sun is the nucleus of the atom, the planets are the tiny electrons orbiting the large nucleus.

And bigger still: the galaxy. One model of our galaxy has a black hole (immense mass) in the centre, resembling the nucleus of the atom, with star systems and planets orbiting at varying distances, closely resembling what an atom must look like.

Everything abides by that simple structure, large central nucleus, then heaps of tiny electrons scattered around it. For example, companies, corporations, cities, almost any aspect of society.

[RichTRX]

Its very very clear in Genesis the life span was steadily declining.

The idea that they confused months with years, or Lunar Years with solar years is just plain wrong. Otherwise there will be 6 year old fathers running around in the Old Testament!

Firstly, you took my post out of context -

Your quote of my post:

...back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)...
the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

My actual post:

The only two logical conclusions I come up with personally are:

a) back when the bible was written, a year (as interpreted by man) was shorter than today (seeing as different cultures had different ways of measuring time, this is quite a credible answer)
b) the bible is wrong, taking into consideration, especially, the fact that the average life expectancy is longer today than it ever has been.

I never mentioned months at all, only that the years may simply have been shorter. There's just as much evidence suggesting that years were short as there was suggesting years were long - zilch. That's completely aside from the fact that both of those points were just my own ideas on what could have happened. I am also quite aware of the genetic "perfection" theory that you stated in your post involving the fruit fly - I was only referring to the fact, however, that the Bible offers no explanation for the way human beings are living longer and longer. I heard somewhere the other day that present day 20 year olds can expect to live well over 100 years. I don't know if I believe that, but it's an interesting concept.

Secondly, good work on gathering that list of people's ages from the Bible. I hadn't gotten that far in Genesis, but where I was at there didn't seem to be any significant trend. Still, it's good to see people getting out there and reading the Bible, if for nothing else to get a persepctive on what others believe.

In reality it's possible to make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. All you have to do is copy the various religious groups and take different verses out of context. If someone says to me: "this is proved in the bible at Genesis 3:7", I'd always read the whole of chapter 3, just to make sure they're not taking it out of context. It's amazing how much this happens. Living forever has been the fantasy of so many people out there it's not funny.

Sure, it'd be nice, maybe, but you have to look at the big picture. The world can't sustain people that live forever. Everything is the way it is for a reason.

[Dano Da Bomb]

You all shall burn in the fires in hell  !!!!!!!! The devil will feast on your soft jelly bit for eternity. Lol ( blackadder)