Author Topic: Do atheists need to know the bible?  (Read 31919 times)

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Offline Jono

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Do atheists need to know the bible?
« on: Aug 30, 2005, 02:14PM »
Do good atheists need to know the bible?

Do good christians need to know the bible?
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Offline Dano Da Bomb

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #1 on: Aug 30, 2005, 02:26PM »
Do good atheists need to know the bible?

Do good christians need to know the bible?

dont know bout atheists but christians do need to know about the bible. Why are you asking??
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Offline SSS

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #2 on: Aug 30, 2005, 02:36PM »
athiests don't believe in religion.

Offline Jtas

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #3 on: Aug 30, 2005, 05:14PM »
What's this religion stuff your talking about? :P

Offline FalconGuy

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #4 on: Aug 30, 2005, 06:47PM »
Do good atheists need to know the bible?

Do good christians need to know the bible?
Interesting question. It depends why you want to know.

If you wish to argue the point with Christians (yourself being an atheist) then yes, it is important to know some of the bible, generally the parts that aid your defence of your point of view. If you are looking to debate with Christians, I really suggest you look into the Old Testament book: Deuteronomy. Thats the one with the angry, venegful god and mothers eating babies parts.

Also look up historical discrepencies of the church. Ie-the ommision and continual censoring of the bible, a good book on that is 'Harlot by the Side of the Road', which contains some 'lost' (read-censored) chapters of the Bible. The doing away with Purgatory and also the facts and figures of such religious based events as the Crusades and the inquisition.

As a note, being an atheist really means you should look outside the Christian religion and research the Quar'an and the Torah and draw parallels between all three religions. One example I can think of is that 'Amen' is a common blessing used in the 'big' three.

Thats for a start, personally, I'd like to go the next step of learning Arabic and reading the Quar'an that way but until then...




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Offline ehh

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #5 on: Aug 30, 2005, 07:15PM »
aethiasts don't need to,,, but out of interest it doesn't hurt to have some knowledge....personally i'd like to get some knowledge off all main religions just out of interest... and having some decent knowledge about such things definately helps to make up your own mind about things!!!!!!!!!!!


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Offline FalconGuy

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #6 on: Aug 30, 2005, 07:53PM »
aethiasts don't need to,,, but out of interest it doesn't hurt to have some knowledge....personally i'd like to get some knowledge off all main religions just out of interest... and having some decent knowledge about such things definately helps to make up your own mind about things!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats exactly right the only thing as annoying as an uninformed Christian is an uninformed atheist!



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Offline Milford

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #7 on: Aug 30, 2005, 08:39PM »
yes, a religious debate, these always turn interesting

Offline Febrile

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #8 on: Aug 30, 2005, 11:02PM »
I'm an aetheist, but damn, you gotta give some credit to a text/collection of stories that has been studied and followed through at least 2000 years of human existence... think what that much manpower/thought applied to a project today would yield!

Oh, and lol@Danooh, I love this:
christians do need to know about the bible.

"Christians have to be aware that their religion is written down in a book somewhereabouts..."  :D :D
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2005, 12:34AM by Narxysus »
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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #9 on: Aug 31, 2005, 12:27AM »
this is just asking for a massive argument!!!!!

id say lock the thread LOL

Offline Jono

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #10 on: Aug 31, 2005, 01:12AM »
id say lock the thread LOL
That isn't really called for, bigpud. I'm hoping for more of a heated debate :P

I have nothing personal against anyone for their religion, nor do I have anything against religions. For the record I am an atheist.

Interesting question. It depends why you want to know.
I am asking only to see what others have to say on the subject.

dont know bout atheists but christians do need to know about the bible.
Why do you say this? Because that's what they told you at school/church? Or is there a reason? Personally, I don't believe either christians or atheists need to know the bible. I do believe they will be better informed and better able to participate in a conversation of religion if they do.

As a note, being an atheist really means you should look outside the Christian religion and research the Quar'an and the Torah and draw parallels between all three religions.
So you're saying atheists should know a bit about each of the 'big 3' religions? Or is it just a matter of interest? I'm only using the bible as an example because it is the holy writing of this country's most popular religion.
BTW, thanks for the pointers, I'll check them out when I have time. :)

Thats exactly right the only thing as annoying as an uninformed Christian is an uninformed atheist!
Definitely, in a religious debate. In everyday life, not so.

you gotta give some credit to a text/collection of stories that has been studied and followed through at least 2000 years of human existence... think what that much manpower/thought applied to a project today would yield!
The way I see the bible is as a way to keep the masses under control. It classes certain acts as sins and prohibits people from performing them, for example the ten commandments. They are commonsense rules (except for the first one, which enforces the other nine) which when put into practice, allow people to live together harmoniously.

If that amount of thought was applied to a project today, the result would be about a tenth of what was produced because of today's various time-wasting rituals such as having the project reviewed at least 20 times to make sure it didn't breach any religious/social/legal ethics.

Let the debate begin  :D
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Offline VladIvanovic

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #11 on: Aug 31, 2005, 01:34AM »
... If you are looking to debate with Christians, I really suggest you look into the Old Testament book: Deuteronomy. Thats the one with the angry, venegful god and mothers eating babies parts.

Also look up historical discrepencies of the church. Ie-the ommision and continual censoring of the bible, a good book on that is 'Harlot by the Side of the Road', which contains some 'lost' (read-censored) chapters of the Bible. The doing away with Purgatory and also the facts and figures of such religious based events as the Crusades and the inquisition ...

lol funny that someone mentioned uninformed atheists are annoying as an uninformed christian/whatever religion and yet theres one thing people dont understand...
that the old testament is a story from the past and that the new testament is what the main catholic/orthodox/christian religions, seeing as the new testament is about Jesus and hence these religions tend to mainly focus on Jesus and what he did for the whole earth upon the cross and so forth. The point of the old testament is more like creation and then the lead up and showing stuff about humans and our existence and how it lead up to Jesus, and then it goes from there through all the chapters up to revelations and stuff.

I dont know why your lookin to start a debate seeing as all it will bring is crap between people on this forum, and people clicking the - sign on peoples karma and lots of arguing between fellow antrx members. Sure itd be nice to debate and whatever, by why waste time.

Faith is something a person either accepts or doesnt. You cant force someone onto it, they have to be willing to accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, or that Mohammed did so and so in the Quran or that a fat man called Buddah walked the earth and stuff. Personally, id just lock this asap before it goes to far.

Offline Jono

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #12 on: Aug 31, 2005, 01:38AM »
I dont know why your lookin to start a debate seeing as all it will bring is crap between people on this forum, and people clicking the - sign on peoples karma and lots of arguing between fellow antrx members. Sure itd be nice to debate and whatever, by why waste time.

I'm putting my faith in my fellow antrxers not to turn this into a shitfight. ;)

To everyone: If you are going to waste time and start an argument for the sake of something to do, go to the flames section or somewhere other than this thread. Thanks.
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Offline noss

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #13 on: Aug 31, 2005, 02:34AM »
yeh i dont see why we should have to lock it.. i think its fine so far.. only the closed minded people will turn it to shit (like always) and then it will be locked.. but until then, freedom of speech guys..


personally i'm interested in satanism but then i dont know.. i dont need a religion to be complete as a person or to have a basis for my moral fibre. i am me and i am what i make myself.

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #14 on: Aug 31, 2005, 07:57AM »
personally i'm interested in satanism but then i dont know.. i dont need a religion to be complete as a person or to have a basis for my moral fibre. i am me and i am what i make myself.

See now thats what i dont understand. Ive been made a christan. Since i was old enough to remember my grandmother dragged me to church right up untill i was 12-13 which means im very knowlagable about the bible yet apart from being a great 2000year old read that many have edited and taken out of context, i dont believe its what everyone should be following.

As far as blue nails, black hair, skulls and gay japanese men licking their lips, i just dont get that. I dont think there is anything wrong with it and some of it looks really good (sept the jap guy) but i just dont see why?

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #15 on: Aug 31, 2005, 10:23AM »
.. i dont need a religion to be complete as a person or to have a basis for my moral fibre. i am me and i am what i make myself.
same here, and I don't get why so many people need religion, especially religions based on books written so many years ago.

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #16 on: Aug 31, 2005, 10:36AM »
Heh. Good old religious debates are fun. I have my own beliefs, i was brought up catholic. However i disagree with a lot of their ideals/rules, and I see organised religion as a major player in many of the worlds ills and a tool for the manipulation of stupid and/or uneducated people.

The bible is the greatest collection of stories ever written. And they are just that - stories. People who interpret the stories in the bible as literal, factual historical occurrences are missing the whole point. Many of the stories serve as explanations of a deeper message. They are just written in a simple  way that people will understand.
Eg: Noahs ark. If you believe that some bloke rode out a flood for 40 days and nights with two of EVERY animal on his boat while the rest of the sinful world died in the arse, you are mentally defunct in many respects. That story shows that there are consequences for living a sinful life, and rewards for living a good one.

I dont think anyone has to know the bible as such, but it sure helps to understand defend the beliefs you hold. Id like to have a flick through other religious texts out of interest but I dont have the time. Ive got the koran and also some satanic texts lying around somewhere, but have never gotten around to reading them.

Theres no real need for religion. Just use common sense and trat others in a manner in which you want to be treated.

And theres no need to call for a lock to the thread. If anyone thinks they wont be able to have a mature discussion without acting like a fuckstick, dont post and dont read anyones replies.

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #17 on: Aug 31, 2005, 11:14AM »
Religious doctrines often teach people that there's something wrong with them if they don't accept religion; that they're outcasts or "tools of satan" or "god hasn't accepted them".

I am faced with this battle nearly every single day - my girlfriend is a Jehovah's Witness and the very idea to her that even her religion could be wrong, let alone the bible, is unthinkable. Keeping the relationship steady while at the same time trying to express myself in a way that doesn't hurt her feelings or make me look like a "tool of satan" in her eyes is proving to be the hardest task I've ever tried to undertake. She is worth everything I do for her in my eyes, but a lot of the time it is an uphill battle.

If Jehovah's Witnesses are correct then I, along with approximately 5,700,000,000 other people, will soon be dead. I don't believe they are correct.

I have read at least 200-300 full A4 pages and hundreds of websites dealing with this topic and it is an incredibly complex issue. There are many issues that the Bible points to that 'could' prove the Bible to be written by god, and correct in what it teaches, but those very same issues can be proven more compellingly against it. For example, the very same scripture in the Bible that religious "organisations" use to "prove" that the writers of the Bible knew the world was spherical before anyone else can be used against it to prove that they thought the world was simply circular.

For example, this scripture at Matthew 4:1, 8-10.
"
The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: 'All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.' Then Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan!'
"
For this to be true the world would have to be flat, because no matter how high the mountain, you would only be able to see a very small sectional area of the earth - you can't see the other side of the earth from a high mountain, can you? Jehovah's Witnesses' typical rebuttal of this is that "the Bible is simply speaking figuratively". If this is so, how can we be expected to follow this example? Why are they using a figurative scripture as "proof"? How many more of the doctrines that Christians follow so closely are simply figurative?

The same is true of the large tree described in the book of Daniel. From this tree you could supposedly see the whole earth, but the same argument as before applies. Also the "world tree" idea was definitely not limited to Daniel. Many pre-Christian cultures believed that a "world tree" sat in the middle of the world and gave life to the whole earth. Obviously for this to be true, again, the world would have to be flat.

There are many other arguments against the Bible, as well as many arguments for it. The dinosaurs, which incidentally are never mentioned in the Bible, are a bit of a problem for Christians. Categorising them with "the wild beasts", which the JW's try to do, simply doesn't cut it. The Bible also putsmankind at about 6000 years old, where there is evidence of at least 100,000 years of human existance. And if the Bible is so righteous, why does it seem to support slavery?

There's enough information to battle it out forever, and indeed, it has been battled out almost since time began. It's just a d*mn shame that so many people have suffered because of it.
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2005, 12:20PM by RichTRX »
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Offline xxcbonexx

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #18 on: Aug 31, 2005, 11:41AM »
Holy cow- so much reading.

Ill just stick to the original question. Yes and Yes. If only at least for the fact that you need to know both sides of any argument before you debate it.

As for my own views on religion, Ive kinda pieced my own thing together. And after reading some previous posts, I must find some place to wedge in a gay japanese man licking his lips (lest my life be otherwise morally bereft)

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #19 on: Aug 31, 2005, 12:10PM »
As far as blue nails, black hair, skulls and gay japanese men licking their lips, i just dont get that. I dont think there is anything wrong with it and some of it looks really good (sept the jap guy) but i just dont see why?

this is the close mindedness i was talking about. a prime example of someone making an argument on their totally uneducated views. of course when someone mentions satanism or whatever they assume it means goths and heavy metal, human sacrifices, blood drinking and all this other totally stupid stuff which is, funnily enough, invented by christians to deter people from satanism. i guess a lot of people that are satanists fit into the goth/listening to rock category, but also a lot of people dont.

i also never said i was a satanist, i just said it was something i was interested in. satanism is a philosophical 'religion'. satanists DO NOT worship satan, the idea of such a think is simply rediculous.


officially i am a catholic. but i lost my faith in the church when i was quite young. the whole 'do unto others as they do unto you' thing is total bullshit in my eyes. i have 2 younger brothers, both are mentally disabled and slightly physically disabled, basically meaning that they're a bit slow at learning, and they cant do simple things that you take for granted like catching a ball or jumping or standing on their tip toes. the catholic church/school treated them like dogs, it was horrible, yet they preached that they loved all of gods creatures. rubbish.

evangelists (born again christians) are in my eyes one of the worlds biggest problems, and the church and its evangelists have had their hand in every american presidential election for the last 50 years or more, hoping that they can have a president voted in that will force their views onto the rest of america.

religion is a differnt thing to different people. my view on it is basically its a set of simple rules that allow mankind to live in harmony, and as bogan said, a bunch of stories for people to take a deeper meaning from.
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2005, 12:14PM by noss »

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #20 on: Aug 31, 2005, 12:19PM »
Quote
religion is a differnt thing to different people. my view on it is basically its a set of simple rules that allow mankind to live in harmony, and as bogan said, a bunch of stories for people to take a deeper meaning from.

amen  :)
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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #22 on: Aug 31, 2005, 12:37PM »
lol funny that someone mentioned uninformed atheists are annoying as an uninformed christian/whatever religion and yet theres one thing people dont understand...
that the old testament is a story from the past and that the new testament is what the main catholic/orthodox/christian religions, seeing as the new testament is about Jesus and hence these religions tend to mainly focus on Jesus and what he did for the whole earth upon the cross and so forth. The point of the old testament is more like creation and then the lead up and showing stuff about humans and our existence and how it lead up to Jesus, and then it goes from there through all the chapters up to revelations and stuff.
Now, I do have an interesting question, and this was brought up to me one day by a good friend of mine who is a lay preacher.

He pointed out to me one day that, for a christian at least, many of the 'Old Laws' of the Old Testament, including say the Tithe, Original Sin etc are no longer applicable. With Jesus dying on the cross for our sins (I am not historically going to dispute this), this meant that all sins previously lumbered upon the human race are null and void, and the laws of the Old Testament are therefore irrelevant. Now this is from a Mainstream, Christian Lay Preacher?!?

I do know that the Christian Church quite often reads from the New Testament however, when something like th 10% Tithe comes into play, back to the Old Testament they all good. Look at places like South America, where the draconian style of the Catholic church there still holds the peasents to their tithe, regardless of all other circumstances.

Also, I suppose it also varies with what actual breed of Christianity you are talking about. For example, the Anglican and other Protestant ministers were always known for giving good old fashioned Fire and Brimstone Vengeful God Masses.




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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #23 on: Aug 31, 2005, 12:50PM »
There are many other arguments against the Bible, as well as many arguments for it. The dinosaurs, which incidentally are never mentioned in the Bible, are a bit of a problem for Christians. Categorising them with "the wild beasts", which the JW's try to do, simply doesn't cut it.
And Jesus and his disciples walked down the trail towards Nazareth but oh, the trail was blocked...by a giant Brontosaurus.

With a splinter in his paw...

and the disciples did run'a screaming; WHAT A BIG FUCKING LIZARD LORD!!!

I'm sure gonna mention this in MY book, said Luke

I'm sure gonna mention it in MY book, said Matthew.

...I'm not sure what I saw....said Thomas...Timothy nudged him, It was a big fucking lizard Thomas!




:D Ah Bill Hicks, an enourmously funny man and a great shame he has passed away.




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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #24 on: Aug 31, 2005, 12:54PM »
evangelists (born again christians) are in my eyes one of the worlds biggest problems, and the church and its evangelists have had their hand in every american presidential election for the last 50 years or more, hoping that they can have a president voted in that will force their views onto the rest of america
Yes, the evangelists are a SCARY political prospect in the United States however, do not think we are exempt from it here in Australia now either.

The massive company, Hillsong Church, located in Sydney I believe (Aside from its turnover of Millions of Dollars) also counts among its 'flock' on more than one occasion: John Howard, Peter Costello, Tony Abbot and Kim Beazley.



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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #25 on: Aug 31, 2005, 01:45PM »
What about religious people knowing about what aetheists believe in? ...e.g evolution ...bigbang etc ......all that mumbo jumbo

pretty much if u go to school u will get taught religion at least while ur at primary ......so u get know the religious stuff ....
my parents believe in god but never go to church ........i foloowed there beliefs untill i went to high school and now i am aetheist ....

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #26 on: Aug 31, 2005, 02:40PM »
Being christian doesnt mean you must by default discount evolution. And vice versa - believing evolution does not mean you by default discount God. Its all in how you interpret the creation story. Those stories were written yonks ago - people of the day would have had no concept of where they came from - and any story told to people would need to factor in their level of understanding and knowledge. These stories simply gave people an idea on how they got where they are. Science has given us a better understanding, yet if you believe in God you can still apply creationism to evolution - God provided the necessary tools for life, going back to mere atoms, then kicked back with a few tinnies and a smoke and watched it all happen. Thats not to say these are my beliefs, just an example of how you can merge creationism and evolution. This is actually somewhat derived from what one of my high school teachers once said. He was/is both a physicist and a deeply religious man.

Modern science proves evolution in many ways, from conservation of genes (believe it or not, critically important genes regulating cells are near 100% identical in everything from yeasts to humans) to fossil records.

The rise of Hillsong is just scary - if we go the way of the religious nuts in America we're fucked

The massive company, Hillsong Church, located in Sydney I believe (Aside from its turnover of Millions of Dollars) also counts among its 'flock' on more than one occasion: John Howard, Peter Costello, Tony Abbot and Kim Beazley.

They can all smell the votes. The evangelists are becoming a rather large enough group to be pollitically worthwhile pursuing.

Offline RichTRX

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #27 on: Aug 31, 2005, 02:46PM »
I remember a wise person once said "Religion tells us who created us and why, and science tells us how it was done." There is far too much scientific evidence supporting evolution to be able to really deny it anymore, and indeed, even few religious organisations try to deny it anymore. (JW's still do). While the Darwin theory on evolution has had to be revised, the same basic ideas still apply in today's views on evolution, and more and more they are proving to be hard-to-disprove. One day we'll know.

If you're not religious, you can decide whether you are athiest or agnostic.

Athiest people believe that there is no god.

Agnostic people believe that there may be a god, but not the god that we worship at the moment.

I don't know what I am. I'd have to say neither. Whether or not there is a god, or whether or not that god is who we worship currently, I don't believe organised religion is the way to go about it.
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Offline noss

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #28 on: Aug 31, 2005, 04:05PM »
good to see that this conversation has so far been kept very civil. good work guys keep it up.

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Offline noss

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Re: Do atheists need to know the bible?
« Reply #29 on: Aug 31, 2005, 04:06PM »
Agnostic people believe that there may be a god, but not the god that we worship at the moment.

I don't know what I am. I'd have to say neither. Whether or not there is a god, or whether or not that god is who we worship currently, I don't believe organised religion is the way to go about it.


come on rich, we all know that i, noss, am your lord and god and antrx.com is our kingdom :P

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