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Offline cruizer

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Thoughts of a finance student
« on: Mar 14, 2008, 09:26PM »
Well I was thinking, our schools teach us a variety of well rounded subjects: Sciences, Maths, English, Language, Physical Education, History, Art. Why don't schools teach Money Management?

We hear everyday about people getting into financial trouble. Why do schools not put an emphasis on Money management?

Discuss....


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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #1 on: Mar 14, 2008, 10:03PM »
Because the shiny arsed academics don't think that how to avoid Bankruptcy is as important as how to appreciate a Degas masterpiece.

School is run by and for Academics. Those rarefied people who wear bow ties and have too much academic focus to be any practical use. Either that or there's a reason that the Government want people to overspend and fail. It moves the money around faster and gives the government more chances to skim off their 10% GST.
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Offline Luke

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #2 on: Mar 15, 2008, 12:21AM »
Academics, and language minded people, feel free to be offended by the narrow minded crap that follows.

Learning English in year 12 is the biggest pile of crap I have ever done. I hated it, I suck at it, and I cant see how it helps in the big picture. Even though there are people out there who enjoy it and are good at it. What do they achieve?? (That may or may not be a rhetorical question. No actually, can someone answer that, cos I don't really know.) All I know is, writing some sort of response about a novel is just wasting my time in writing it, and anyone else who reads it's time in reading it. Who gives a shit, seriously.


/Narrow-minded, slightly irrelevant rant.
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Offline stretch

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #3 on: Mar 15, 2008, 01:07AM »
At my old high school they would give you a 'street smart' hand book and send you on your way.

Your right when you say that people need to be educated on how to handle money, however some schools (like my old one) are run like a business and count on your lack of financial knowledge to make money. I remember my school actually winning business of the year a couple of years back, our canteen also made well over fifty thousand dollars profit each year too.

I also agree with what Luke is saying even if it is a little off topic. You may already know this but we were jibbed. Apparently a lot of schools now offer alternatives to your basic English class such as, History of the English language, English vocabulary etc...
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Offline Maximus

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #4 on: Mar 15, 2008, 09:51AM »
dont people normally choose the subjects they do? i choose maths applications as opposed to maths methods and i learnt about stuff like playing the sharemarket, budgeting and balance sheets aswell as banking stuff like interest rates.

same with English, i didnt choose the English Studies i choose English Communications, which taught how to write letters and resumes (not so much in year 12 but in yr11)

maybe when your in year 8, 9 and 10 it just sucks, but when your able to choose subjects in year 11, 12 choose things like accounting, maths apps, econmics etc. it makes middle school look pointless i spose

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #5 on: Mar 15, 2008, 10:36AM »
Academics, and language minded people, feel free to be offended by the narrow minded crap that follows.

Learning English in year 12 is the biggest pile of crap I have ever done. I hated it, I suck at it, and I cant see how it helps in the big picture. Even though there are people out there who enjoy it and are good at it. What do they achieve?? (That may or may not be a rhetorical question. No actually, can someone answer that, cos I don't really know.) All I know is, writing some sort of response about a novel is just wasting my time in writing it, and anyone else who reads it's time in reading it. Who gives a shit, seriously.


/Narrow-minded, slightly irrelevant rant.

Oh I agree oh too much!!!

I always got in arguments with my fruitloop of an english teacher about how the fuck she came up with an idea of why they used x colour background and how it effects us in how we interpret the books cover, get fk'd. No logic whatsoever.
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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #6 on: Mar 15, 2008, 10:48AM »
dont people normally choose the subjects they do? i choose maths applications as opposed to maths methods and i learnt about stuff like playing the sharemarket, budgeting and balance sheets aswell as banking stuff like interest rates.

at my school, english was compulsory in yr 11 & 12 and maths was also compulsory, although you could choose between maths a & b there was also maths c, which was additional to maths b

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Offline Luke

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #7 on: Mar 15, 2008, 11:47AM »
My school was the same Noss, had to do atleast 1 language based subject. And I did the maths A and B too. School's don't seem to teach many life skills, example: I havent used standard deviation once since I left school! Who would have seen that coming?
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Offline Febrile

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #8 on: Mar 15, 2008, 03:15PM »
Learning English in year 12 is the biggest pile of crap I have ever done. I hated it, I suck at it, and I cant see how it helps in the big picture. Even though there are people out there who enjoy it and are good at it. What do they achieve?? (That may or may not be a rhetorical question. No actually, can someone answer that, cos I don't really know.) All I know is, writing some sort of response about a novel is just wasting my time in writing it, and anyone else who reads it's time in reading it. Who gives a shit, seriously.

I don't know about people who specialise in english, but I think there's something for the classes at school.  The idea behind english is that you are taught that media of various kinds will often say something it doesn't look like it's actually saying, and you're able to recognise and identify that.  Put simply, it teaches you that (a) there is space between the lines, and (b) how to read between them.  Sure, some of the connections they draw in english are vague and sometimes absurd, but nonetheless the fact that they can be drawn should be a signal to you that the world can be read in many different ways.  You need to be able to keep an eye out for this, so you are not misled or misinformed or persuaded without being aware of it.

I didn't like english either, but ever since doing it I have been keenly aware that people rarely write/film/say stuff without having a motivation to do so, and it is that motivation which can be hidden between the lines which we should be aware of.

We hear everyday about people getting into financial trouble. Why do schools not put an emphasis on Money management?

In principle, I would wholeheartedly reject this idea.  If it is necessary because of the appalling state society is in, so be it, but otherwise, I would not support this.  Why? It's commonsense.

(Money in) - (Money out) = (Money left over)

if (Money left over) < 0

then reduce (Money out)

      until (Money left over) > 0

If this is too late in the income/spending cycle, then apply the same methodology to expected future money in/out.

That's all there is to it.  There's no 'money management'.  It's a simple process of not spending more than you earn.

I would not be surprised if the sort of people who think that credit cards are free money are the same kind of people who flunked english and did not grasp the idea of 'ulterior motives'.
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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #9 on: Mar 15, 2008, 04:31PM »
I did both English Comm's and Maths Applications (sharemarket, interest, investments were the topics) in year 12. I also thought my year of English was the biggest waste of time, i didnt do my last major, just because i saw no reason for it to help me in the future.

I have no debt whatsoever, and am actually investing in my own super and long term savings already at the age of 17. All because of exactly what Narxysus said, i make sure my money going out is the same or less than the money going in.

Fair enough, Jaye is right they should think of teaching it if the financial state of humans is so bad, but their argument could well also be that those who dont have the common sense to keep money out < money in, they deserve to have the debt and pay interest on it, suffer the consequences of no common sense.
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Offline chr1S

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #10 on: Mar 15, 2008, 05:24PM »
Sorry narxysus, I still think complusory english is a load of fucking crap.

I have not used it since I left school and in this course i'm doing at uni, i dont think i ever will. For some career paths, sure it will come into play.

I have a strong gut feeling on teaching kids how to save greatly depends on the parents. Having said that though, a kid could come from a financially struggling family and it would be hard to explain concepts of saving as such.
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Offline Febrile

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #11 on: Mar 15, 2008, 05:57PM »
Sorry narxysus, I still think complusory english is a load of fucking crap.

I think part of the problem is that people expect all subjects to be useful in a tangible way like maths etc.  With english, and related studies, like history - it's not like you go out and actively 'use' what you're exposed to in the class, but I believe that subconsciously and incidentally, the lessons are employed in your day to day life without you necessarily being aware of it.  It all just adds to your knowledge and the way you perceive the world.  Your life, and what you learn at school, is not all about your career - an education that focuses on shaping young people to be productive economic units is not much of an education at all.

Too much nowadays people want immediate, tangible, useful results from a process, and no one is giving consideration to things that have a subtle, long term payoff that is nonetheless worth the cost. 
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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #12 on: Mar 15, 2008, 06:08PM »
Correct Narx, you have an incredibly good debating side to you.
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Offline chr1S

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #13 on: Mar 15, 2008, 06:15PM »
Right, so having said that, why don't we learn how to write, punctuate, spell, etc correctly, we use them on a daily basis don't we?

Don't forget, half the crap high schools teach in basic grades such as english standard, people like myself loose interest in a split second and thus don't care, I've said to her many times because she hassles me why I can't tell her why someone felt refreshed after having a swim in the water that I would have a much greater concentration span if it were focussed on english grammar.

It's funny how my physics, engineering and maths teachers agree.

Yeah sure, analysing a book may help up analyse something in a real life situation, but most of it is real life instinct rather than methods learnt in english besides, it's english class right not emotional class? I can count 1000 essays she mentioned where we need to express our opinion emotionally in order to make a good statement. meh.
« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2008, 06:17PM by chr1S »
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Offline SSS

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #14 on: Mar 15, 2008, 06:27PM »
I should have been a doctor.

Offline Maximus

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #15 on: Mar 15, 2008, 07:08PM »
i spose the interest in english differentiates the masses

whilst it teaches you crap that you probably would never think of using it, subconsciously you might be. It depends on what you go on to do in life. a bricky probably wouldnt use it much, but other paths require in depth thinking and analysis, just like the skills learnt from watching a crappy movie and writing two pages on hidden messages.

as for teaching Money Management, well that would be great and society would probably benefit, but that could possibly throw off the entire balance of the universe. The country needs idiots who take out massive loans and get into huge debts, its the way of the world. We all know what caused the great depression... people saving money. That is something that the smart person does, and something you would probably be taught in the Money Management course

but we need people who throw money away, remember consumer spending amounts to 60% of GDP

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #16 on: Mar 15, 2008, 07:57PM »
I dont think we need an extra subject at school teaching us this stuff.  It already seems there are like 2 new maths courses... we never got taught about sharemarket and crap in maths.  That was what accounting was for.

Not many people go bankrupt because they dont know how to manage their money... it happens because they take risks.  To make money you have to take risks... usually bigger risk = bigger payback.  People are just greedy and thats why they go bankrupt.

At highschool you are not in a position to take the types of risks you will face at 25 and on.

Offline Febrile

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #17 on: Mar 15, 2008, 08:50PM »
Right, so having said that, why don't we learn how to write, punctuate, spell, etc correctly, we use them on a daily basis don't we?

We do, but it's supposed to have happened in primary school, or lower high.  By upper high school you should have obtained these skills.

Yeah sure, analysing a book may help up analyse something in a real life situation, but most of it is real life instinct rather than methods learnt in english besides, it's english class right not emotional class? I can count 1000 essays she mentioned where we need to express our opinion emotionally in order to make a good statement. meh.

It's difficult for me to articulate what I want to say in response to this, but I think I can best summarise it by a chicken and egg scenario - in a society with a more developed cultural/social identity, the things we learn in english would probably be of much greater importance.  But we're all here scratching around in the dirt making a living and then going home and watching tv, so english isn't as important.  But the only way we're going to change that is by making english more important, so we teach it in schools.  You see what I mean?

I have to go to work now - I'd like to elaborate, but I guess it'll have to wait.
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Offline cruizer

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #18 on: Mar 16, 2008, 12:00AM »
Wow lots of replies and debate, thats what i was after  ;D

The way I see it is English was great because it was easy marks!

Fair enough, Jaye is right they should think of teaching it if the financial state of humans is so bad, but their argument could well also be that those who dont have the common sense to keep money out < money in, they deserve to have the debt and pay interest on it, suffer the consequences of no common sense.

Not sure if a agree with that statement. Sometimes it isn't common sense. When the media is bombarding people with the 'now now now' mantra people lose common sense "I need that, I need this". There is a huge difference between needs and wants which is considered common sense.

I'm too tired to make some decent posts so I'll go post whore some more and maybe contribute properly tomorrow...

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #19 on: Mar 16, 2008, 03:56PM »
Common sense would suggest that the media cant infiltrate your brain, common sense would make you study yourself and find out what really is needed, and would mean you can define you needs and wants more easily compared to someone with less common sense.

That whole sentence even confused me, but in short, those who supposedly lose their common sense by media infiltration, probably didnt have that much common sense to begin with.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 04:00PM by BILL*69 »
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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #20 on: Mar 16, 2008, 07:31PM »
We do, but it's supposed to have happened in primary school, or lower high.  By upper high school you should have obtained these skills.

Indeed.

Plenty of my grade 5's have the skills to read, understand the meaning of the text and read between the lines (infer meaning) from said texts.

However, some of them have a lot of trouble with this.  They are sometimes the same kids who have trouble understanding other students emotions, speech and body language.  Reading 'between the lines' is an EXTREMELY important skill, not only when reading your daily newspaper or website, but also when applied to your own everyday life.  These are sometimes kids that get thumped out in the yard or are disruptive in class...

By the end of Grade 4 (according to VELS, vic education standards) all students should be able to 'read' ... once we get them in Grade 5+ the focus is on reading for meaning.  You read to generate an image/idea in your mind, learn something, understand something.  As Narx' said, meanings are hidden everywhere we look.  This is not always apparent to all children/students and can be a very difficult concept to grasp.

Bah!!... I loved English at school loved literature and hated maths with a passion.

Cruiser, I've been reading a book recently with my girl called 'rich dad poor dad'.  Fascinating book about the financial journeys and movements of people, one persons view on making money mirrored against the progress of friends and family over the years.  Puts things in perspective.  However, putting things in perspective is very difficult for most high-school students.  This is something that comes from parents, not schooling as such.  The majority do not understand the importance of financial responsibility when young because their parents have set a poor example, or sometimes no example at all.

In most cases, the poor stay poor and middle class stay in the middle and the rich stay rich.  But there is always room to move, always.

/end ramble
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Offline cruizer

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #21 on: Mar 16, 2008, 07:35PM »
I've read Rich Dad Poor Dad too, quite a good book.

For anyone that is interested I suggest reading 'The Richest Man in Babylon'. One of the best books on money you can read. No gimmicks or get rich schemes  ;)

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #22 on: Mar 16, 2008, 07:36PM »
I've read Rich Dad Poor Dad too, quite a good book.

For anyone that is interested I suggest reading 'The Richest Man in Babylon'. One of the best books on money you can read. No gimmicks or get rich schemes  ;)

Seriously, because I will buy it for my girl.  She loves this stuff.
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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #23 on: Mar 17, 2008, 02:19PM »
Right, so having said that, why don't we learn how to write, punctuate, spell, etc correctly, we use them on a daily basis don't we?

lol.. i consider myself to have quite good skills in this area. i just dont punctuate a whole lot on antrx cause its the interwebs and most of you kids make sense of what i write still.

if everyone had spelling and grammatical dramas like pringles i think i'd go insane.

there are tafe courses if you feel you're knowledge in this particular area isnt up to scratch  :P

Fair enough, Jaye is right they should think of teaching it if the financial state of humans is so bad, but their argument could well also be that those who dont have the common sense to keep money out < money in, they deserve to have the debt and pay interest on it, suffer the consequences of no common sense.

with this, i dont agree either, my outgoing money is more than i earn, in a sense.. the reason why? i was not and will never earn enough in one pay period to buy my house outright, nor will i save enough money in a lifetime to do so.

hence a big fat debt. but its a debt worth having.

also, all the uni kids taking advantage of hecs. big fat debts everywhere (not as big as my home loan though  ::))

after you incur this massive debt though, on a pay to pay basis you then need to keep everything into perspective and not go over budget, but sometimes something pops up and it makes things impossible, it could be anything.. say for example, your hot water heater failing in your house.. a hot water unit is something not many people would want to live without, so to experience discomfort for the shortest period possible, if there is no money in the budget for the hot water unit, more money goes on a credit card and you have to play catch up. but you keep that in mind too and cut back on your spending for a while until your back in the green..


debts are not bad money management, until you let them become uncontrollable. the majority of people have the common sense to not let things get out of hand.

i dont even know what i'm saying :P there is a point somewhere in that.

However, some of them have a lot of trouble with this.  They are sometimes the same kids who have trouble understanding other students emotions, speech and body language.

lol maybe dave failed english  ::)

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #24 on: Mar 17, 2008, 10:14PM »
I've always been of the opinion that you should only borrow money for your needs, not your wants.

i.e. you NEED a house to live in, you could either pay someone rent and never see that money again, or you could take out a home loan and buy a house, then pay it off using the money that you save on rent, plus a bit. It may cost a little bit more each period until you get it paid off, but after that it won't cost nearly as much, and you're left with an asset worth a few hundred grand.

On the flipside:

You NEED a car.

You WANT a nice car.

Do you go out and buy a brand new [insert make and model here] and pay it off for the next 5-10 years, which ends up costing you $55k, for a car originally worth $35k, that is worth $10k by the time you finish paying it off? ($45k loss)

Or do you buy a shitter for $2k, drive it for 5 years and sell it for 1k? (1k loss)

Is it really worth over a year's pay (for most of us anyway) to drive a new car for a year, which quickly becomes a new-ish one for a few years?

This is what my parents have drilled into me from day one, and I'm thankful for it.

On the same sort of topic, a couple of my mates started talking about getting motorbikes. I had been meaning to get my bike licence for a while so I went with one of them and did the Q-ride course, and loved it. I'd never really considered buying myself a motorbike but yeah, after that day I started looking. I took a few for test rides over the next few weeks, found one I liked and bought it outright. My mates who are looking at bikes both have car loans and finance on other things, and it doesn't look like they'll be able to afford to buy one for a year or so because they (frankly) had shit financial planning. They each bought stuff that they wanted on finance and realistically couldn't afford, and are paying for it in the long run.

[/preach]

there are tafe courses if you feel you're knowledge in this particular area isnt up to scratch  :P

I'm guessing that was deliberate? :P

I never liked english because of the pointless reviews and stuff that we had to write. They're too arbitrary and, as much as it isn't supposed to, the marking depends too much on the teacher's opinion. I do value communication skills though, which probably shows in my spelling and punctuation, etc. But I had all that by the end of primary school.
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Offline BILL*69

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #25 on: Mar 17, 2008, 10:21PM »
Good points.

Because i dont have a house, or any loan for that matter, and at this point in time i have no ACTUAL needs like a house etc, i guess i never thought of it that way. Hence, it helps to have a bunch of grandfathers on here  :P
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When i'm cruisin' wit my bitches and G's ready to pop a cap in the ass of some fool who thinks he's bank by takin' my corner of the block....  ::)

Offline cruizer

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #26 on: Mar 18, 2008, 12:23AM »
Seriously, because I will buy it for my girl.  She loves this stuff.

Go buy it. Its written in an older language. The stories are almost like 'parables'. It's written in older style writing but thats part of why it is so interesting. He's sold over 2 million copies so it's gotta be good.Its only around $15 too.

Offline Kranzy

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #27 on: Mar 18, 2008, 04:02PM »
Its only around $15 too.

Thats good cause budgies a tight ass.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


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Offline Budgie

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #28 on: Mar 18, 2008, 04:18PM »
Thats good cause budgies a tight ass.

fuck you kranz...

true however :P

You NEED a car.  You WANT a nice car.

This is a view I have come to establish myself and with some of my friends.  I have recently been leaning towards buying a new'ish car.  Primarilry because now i'm earning money (more so than I used to) and because I am finding the TRX uncomfortable to drive for such a distance every day.

But then I thought about it even more.  The only things I really want out of a 'communting car' that I don't really have in the TRX... are...

- interior comfort (seating, aircon... climate control is even better) - TRX's seats are stuffed
- ride comfort (smoother over bumps, etc)
- cruise control (i'm on country roads alot)
- quiet inside when on the highway

I don't need to buy an 8-10k BA/BF falcon or something to get this... a $3k U13 Bluebird would suffice.  Its funny that I'm posting this in the same post in which i've quoted Kranz calling me a tight ass!!

But seriously.  Until I have money to 'blow' on a nice new car, I simply won't.  As jono said, I don't NEED too.

I'm always hanging shit on Urq because he blows his cash on new shit he uses once then never uses again... its dumb!  I like being a 'tight ass' when it comes to this kind of stuff, it will help me in the future :P
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2008, 04:29PM by Budgie »
dont piss me off with your pillarless shit captain snappy wrist

Offline chr1S

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Re: Thoughts of a finance student
« Reply #29 on: Mar 18, 2008, 04:45PM »
Quote
Until I have money to 'blow' on a nice new car, I simply won't.

lmao
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

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to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...