Author Topic: Distributor problems (soon to be "WTF, how do I fix the timing???" :) )  (Read 31476 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
K, so I had some pretty strange problems over the weekend. The car lost power every now and then, and twice stalled and would not start (only being fixed by disconnecting the battery for 5min, then trying again). The car's going in to get serviced on Tuesday, but one thing i noticed was when changing the relays around, one of the relays (blue-topped) for the cooling fan 1 was burnt and blackened. Swapping them around with ASCD, Fuel Pump, and Cornering Lamps got me cooling fans working, and ALSO made my aircon work! (Added bonus, it hasn't been working since i got the car).

Which brings me to the conclusion that at least two of the relays are dead. Anyone know where I can get replacements, and how much they'd be?

Oh, and does anyone know how to fix my car?  :D I get some pretty loud timing chain rattle, and it misfires whenever it feels like it (usually above 2krpm though). Timing chain issue? Distributor issue?

Cheers,

Cam
« Last Edit: Oct 4, 2007, 11:25PM by csimpson »

Offline Alister

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 740
  • Karma: +27/-32
  • Gender: Male
  • 5.7L LS1 oooh yeah baby!
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #1 on: Sep 28, 2007, 05:38PM »
Any auto electrician should have the ones you need in stock.
When I had my U13, I picked up a new relay from my auto elec for $12.
Or you could check Repco?

Offline slim

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Nissan Bluebird SSS 1996 ®
    • Pictures
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #2 on: Sep 28, 2007, 09:16PM »
Oh, and does anyone know how to fix my car?  :D I get some pretty loud timing chain rattle, and it misfires whenever it feels like it (usually above 2krpm though). Timing chain issue? Distributor issue?

Is the noise coming from the drivers side of the engine?  - thats timing chain rattle
And can it be heard inside the car when the windows and doors and bonnet are shut ?  - if its very audible then you might want to see about getting a new timing chain.
Also what km's are on the car?

Check the spark plugs for correct gaps and leads for correct resistance. found in FSM http://www.antrx.com/smf/index.php?topic=12307.0
or PM me and i can send you the parts required. it seems its not hosted.
whilst your at it check the dizzy cap, should have no oil and clean inside and 4 white markers ( i think not sure)
  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
  • Full Whiteline Kit
  • Tokico Shocks
¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 29, 2007, 08:43PM »
Oh, and does anyone know how to fix my car?  :D I get some pretty loud timing chain rattle, and it misfires whenever it feels like it (usually above 2krpm though). Timing chain issue? Distributor issue?

Timing chain rattle is normal for the U13 once it has a few 'kays' under the belt. But it doesn't necessarily mean that your chain is stuffed. The solution.... rip out the 2 upper timing chain guides and throw them in the bin. No, i'm not kidding! Do a search, i have posted on this topic a few times before and I think i even put up some pictures (not sure if they will still work??).

With regard to the mis-firing, take your dizzy cap off, undo the 8mm bolt that holds the rotor in and remove the rotor. Take off the black cap that covers the cam position sensor and check inside there for any oil that has made its way in.
My car did exactly what you have described, the mis-firing, loss of power, etc etc. Until it eventually died on the side of the road. After 5 minutes or so it would re-start and drive perfectly normally.
Turns out there was oil in the cam position sensor. I cleaned it out with a can of contact cleaner, drilled a couple of very small drain holes in the bottom of the cam position sensor cover to let any oil in there drain away and I haven't had a single problem since!
Maybe this is your problem, maybe it isn't, but it is definately worth investigating.
Cheers, Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline slim

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Nissan Bluebird SSS 1996 ®
    • Pictures
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #4 on: Sep 29, 2007, 10:09PM »
Timing chain rattle is normal for the U13 once it has a few 'kays' under the belt. But it doesn't necessarily mean that your chain is stuffed. The solution.... rip out the 2 upper timing chain guides and throw them in the bin. No, i'm not kidding! Do a search, i have posted on this topic a few times before and I think i even put up some pictures (not sure if they will still work??).
Cheers, Dan.

This might be the article Dan was speaking about. completely forgot that i had it bookmarked.
Its for the SR engine but does explain the procedure, still should look at the FSM for more detail
http://www.nissanforums.com/sr-series-engines-de-ve/55949-write-up-how-remove-upper-timing-chain-guide.html

  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
  • Full Whiteline Kit
  • Tokico Shocks
¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #5 on: Sep 29, 2007, 10:50PM »
Here's another thread with all of the details for chain guide removal...
http://www.antrx.com/smf/index.php/topic,2926.0.html

And some pics:
The upper guide that is easy to get to:


The front chain guide from underneath the timimg cover:


The bolt holes where the front chain guide used to live on my car:


I threw the bolts for the front guide away. I didn't want to put them back, as they don't serve any other purpose than to hold that guide in place. They would just be another risk, if they were to come loose and end up floating around in the timing chain area. That would be ugly for sure!
Hope this all helps, Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #6 on: Oct 2, 2007, 09:35AM »
But my U13 is an S2  :-[ No guides, AFAIK. I don't mind the rattle though.

And I'll definitely take a look at the distributor, thanks heaps for that info. It's having a minor service done to it today, so I'll look at the dizzy myself when it gets back home to save a few dollars :)

Greenbird - you said you drilled a few holes in the cam position sensor itself?  :-\ I'm not particularly technically-minded, but I think I'll be fine to look at everything. I'll post in here if I have any troubles :)

It'll be nice to have some peace-of-mind once the issue is resolved - I'm driving to Bathurst (3.5hours), Melbourne (~11 hours?) and Surfer's Paradise (~13 hours?) in the next couple of months, so I'd definitely like to know that the car is happy.


P.S I'm liking the new-look forums  ;D

P.P.S My alternator is whining at idle - does this mean it's on its way out, or is there something I can do to keep it going  :)

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 2, 2007, 08:50PM »
Greenbird - you said you drilled a few holes in the cam position sensor itself?  :-\ I'm not particularly technically-minded, but I think I'll be fine to look at everything. I'll post in here if I have any troubles :)

Yeah, i drilled a couple of small holes in the bottom of the black plastic cover for the cam position sensor. That way, not oil can accumulate in there and cause trouble....
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #8 on: Oct 3, 2007, 05:46PM »
Hmmm.

When I went to look at the dizzy I noticed that one of the 10mm bolts holding it to the block was shorn off  :o and when I tested the other one, it went as well. So, now my dizzy is held on by a single similar-sized one that I found in my garage. Does anyone know the specs of the bolts that hold the dizzy to the block, and where I might be able to get a couple?

Also, upon taking the dizzy cap off, Greenbird, I couldn't see an 8mm bolt (to get in at the rotor). I have a suspicion that it's an aftermarket replacement dizzy - would this change what to do? Anyway, I didn't manage to open the dizzy up but when I put the replacement 10mm bolt in to secure it to the block, I experimented with the dizzy at varying degrees to see if that would change anything. At one extreme there was audible pinging (marbles-in-a-can sound), and at the other extreme the car felt sluggish.

When driving the car at "the other extreme" (timing retarded, I would assume), it was misfiring and dying as I drove. When driving the car at the first "extreme" (timing advanced) it didn't misfire or stall or die, but it was pinging under any reasonable load. SO, I experimented some more and I think I've found a happy medium, where it doesn't ping (audibly, at least) and it doesn't sputter and stall. If i recall correctly, the dizzy is twisted slightly more to the 'advanced' side than it was this morning (when I first looked at it, and noticed it still misfiring when i drove). Is this a safe thing to do? It has a diet of exclusively 95 octane. Should I maybe take it to an auto-elec/mechanic who can set the timing properly? :)
« Last Edit: Oct 3, 2007, 05:59PM by csimpson »

Offline Budgie

  • Dr. B Udgie - AWD FTW
  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 9411
  • Karma: +131/-33
  • Gender: Male
  • U12-U13
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 3, 2007, 06:43PM »
Are you using a timing light CS?  To test the timing and make sure its within spec as per the KA24DE stock?
dont piss me off with your pillarless shit captain snappy wrist

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 3, 2007, 06:47PM »
No, I don't have a timing light.  :) I'm thinking I may get my mechanic to check the timing, to make sure it's all A-Ok.

Assuming that it was at 20 degrees BTDC stock (which suits 91RON), would it be OK to have it a tiny bit advanced, seeing as I'm running 95RON?
« Last Edit: Oct 3, 2007, 06:49PM by csimpson »

Offline Budgie

  • Dr. B Udgie - AWD FTW
  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 9411
  • Karma: +131/-33
  • Gender: Male
  • U12-U13
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 3, 2007, 07:20PM »
I wouldn't coming into summer... when intake temps will be alot higher than other times of the year.
dont piss me off with your pillarless shit captain snappy wrist

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 3, 2007, 07:30PM »
Righto, I think I might return it to where it was @ stock then. (You can see where it used to be, from oil marks left by the bolt)

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 3, 2007, 08:51PM »
If you have an oil leak inside your dizzy, pull it apart and replace the seal. It isn't all that hard, just be careful with the cam angle sensor bits, they look rather delicate.
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!

Offline slim

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Nissan Bluebird SSS 1996 ®
    • Pictures
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #14 on: Oct 3, 2007, 09:12PM »
Jono
I remember when i had my dizzy recon'd that there was a post or a link that showed how to disassemble a dizzy completely.
Also for a recon job i payed $220. not bad considering a tune, timing and warranty thrown in.
  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
  • Full Whiteline Kit
  • Tokico Shocks
¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 4, 2007, 04:22PM »
OK.

Took the dizzy cap off, took off the 8mm bolt and then rotor, dust cover etc, and i'm at this point:



Is the black thing on the right down the bottom the "black cap"cam position sensor cover that Greenbird described?

If so, how do I take it off :p I've sprayed some contact cleaner in between it and the thin metal disc, but I can't seem to get it off. Any tips?

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 4, 2007, 05:35PM »
Is the black thing on the right down the bottom the "black cap"cam position sensor cover that Greenbird described?
That's as far as you need to go mate!
The large black cover that you took off to expose the cam position wheel is the one i was talking about.
The black thing at the 4 'o clock position that you are talking about is the actual cam position sensor.
Looks nice and clean in there.... Which is good!
Was there any oil in there before you went nuts with the contact cleaner?
Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 4, 2007, 08:15PM »
Yeah, there was quite a bit, actually. Cleaned out now, started it, and it's running like a dream, no misfiring all the way to redline (when free-revving). Only got the chance to take it to 4000rpm while i was testdriving - will give it the full stick tomorrow and see if it blows up on me :)

Offline slim

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Nissan Bluebird SSS 1996 ®
    • Pictures
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #18 on: Oct 4, 2007, 08:51PM »
csimpson have a look at this.
http://www.antrx.com/smf/index.php/topic,12339.0.html or direct
http://tiger.towson.edu/~hzaidi1/distributor.htm

Check inside the cap after a week and see how much oil has built up.
The seal in the last few pics is the reason why the oil leaks through.
As yours seems to run it just might require regular maintenance through out the rest of its life until it dies.
  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
  • Full Whiteline Kit
  • Tokico Shocks
¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #19 on: Oct 4, 2007, 08:57PM »
Hahaha.
I'm sure it will be fine. Good to hear that you were able to clean it out.
Hopefully your car will be running better now.
As Slim has suggested, Just make it a part of your regular maintenence schedule to open up and clean out the dizzy....
Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #20 on: Oct 4, 2007, 10:11PM »
Given that my timing's probably out slightly - how much would it cost to take it to a mechanic and get it adjusted?

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #21 on: Oct 4, 2007, 10:35PM »
It would be not much more than to go out and buy your own timing light and do it yourself..... And you will then own the light to check the timing again in the future!
A timing light will probably cost you between $30 and $50.
To pay someone to adjust the timing really shouldn't cost you any more than $20. It takes less than 5 minutes....
Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Car issues; Which relays to buy?
« Reply #22 on: Oct 4, 2007, 11:03PM »
Guess I might buy a timing light then :)

I'll do it after I get home from Bathurst. Anyone know where I might be able to get one?

And expect a thread from me soon "WTF, how do i do this?"  :D

Offline slim

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Nissan Bluebird SSS 1996 ®
    • Pictures
WTF ?? Help me !!
« Reply #23 on: Oct 4, 2007, 11:23PM »
Actually someone should do a write up for the wiki section on how to do the timing on your car.
i would but have uni deadlines

change the thread title on this one to WTF ?? Help me !!
  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
  • Full Whiteline Kit
  • Tokico Shocks
¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Simple. The moderators can move this into another article if they wish.

1. Get the car up to normal operating temp by taking it for a drive, then turn it off.
2. Electrically disconnect the throttle position sensor at the loom.
3. Connect your timing light to the battery and then place the clamp over #1 spark plug lead, as close as possible to the spark plug.
4. Start the car and use the throttle to hold the engine at 3000rpm or so for a few seconds. Slowly let the revs drop down to idle. The car will idle lower than usual and seem a little rough whilst the throttle position sensor is disconnected. This is normal.
5. Aim your timing light down the front of the engine (next to the right hand strut tower) and look for the timing mark on the alloy timing case next to the harmonic balancer. There will also be a series of timing marks on the edge of the harmonic balancer. As the timing light flashes, you should see the mark on the timing case line up in front of the series of marks on the harmonic balancer. It can be awkward to get the timing light into a position where it lights up the timing marks, but keep trying at different angles and you will work out a way that suits you. It can be done.
6. Whilst pointing the flashing timing light at the timing marks, check where the harmonic balancer mark is lining up, compared to the timing case marks. On the harmonic balancer, there is one big orange mark which indicates 0 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Centre). There is a single white mark to one side indicating -5 deg BTDC and a series of white marks to the other side indicating 5 deg, 10 deg, 15 deg, 20 deg and so on.
7. Slightly undo the 10mm bolts that hold the distributor in position and SLOWLY rotate the dizzy until you get the 20 degree timing mark on the harmonic balancer to line up with the mark on the timing case.
8. Re-tighten the dizzy bolts and then re-check that the timing is still on 20 degrees.
9. If all is good, turn off your engine and re-connect the throttle position sensor.

Done!

Hope this helps.
Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
Woo!
« Reply #25 on: Oct 7, 2007, 12:15PM »
Well, I drove to Bathurst this weekend to see my girlfriend (who is working for CH7 on the V8s). Got 3/4s of the way to Bathurst, and the dizzy died again - more oil. Cleaned it out, got to Bathurst, had a good time, drove home this morning (trying to get my car back without having to rip the dizzy apart again).

So I'm back home, but the dizzy is oiled up again.

Does anyone know the part number of the oil seal that I have to get?
« Last Edit: Oct 7, 2007, 02:08PM by csimpson »

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Pull it out and take it to a bearing place, they'll be able to match it up with something off the shelf.
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
My brother's going to get a new oil seal from Nee-san tomorrow, as well as a new dizzy cap, rotor, spark plugs and a timing light  :D  I can handle catching the bus for a day or two if it means my car will be fixed :)

Offline csimpson

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Karma: +2/-1
So, in the end I bit the bullet and took it to my local mechanic, to get it out of my hair.

$123 later, and the distributor has all new seals and the timing's been set.

I am now happy. :D

Offline greenbird

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +11/-1
  • Gender: Male
Good work mate!
To help everyone else out, would you please be able to post up the part number for the distributor oil seal and tell us where you got it from. If you got it through Nissan, the part number will be on the receipt.....
And also, do you know the price of the seal on its own?
Thanks, Dan.
93 U13 Bluebird
5 spd
Finer Filter, Hi-Flow cat & 2.25" exhaust
17X7 Concept 5 wheels
2 inch lowered King Springs