Author Topic: semi automatic mod?  (Read 8225 times)

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Offline Colby

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semi automatic mod?
« on: Apr 17, 2009, 11:44AM »
So was thinking about a comment I made the other day about the short shifter throw and clutch co-ordination (or lack of).  So got thinking if it would be possible to make an electronic button (say incorperated into the knob) so when you push the button the clutch engages super fast, then disengages as soon as you take pressure off the button. Kinda like the pic below but electronic rather than lever.  That way eliminating the need for foot movement for quick changes (or when just feeling lazy)
Foot pedal would stay as you'd need something for control in traffic etc.  I got the idea from looking at the setup in the Golf mega thread




For the mechanism, I was thinking a solanoid with either a secondary master cyl or somehow have it connect to existing, (something that wont make the pedel move every time)
As i mentioned the button/s (or sensors as i like to think of them) would be in the gear knob so when forward or rear pressure is put on the knob (as you would do when you change gears) the sensor switches and gets the clutch going.

Whole system could be turned on and off via a secondary switch on dash.

Now maybe i'm dreaming and the electrics might be too slow or may be something i didnt think of mechanically or just simply too hard.  Figure they have similar things in rally/race cars (like the golf) just putting my own spin on it.  I don't know... just thinking out loud here for some more knowledgable comments.

Possible or not really?

Offline noss

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #1 on: Apr 17, 2009, 11:47AM »
would need to be an awesome solenoid.. sorr cant be much more help than that :P

kinda related, but i know for the auto kids you can do a flappy paddle mod. one of the members here (chaserone) has just done it to his auto 300zx.

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Offline SSS

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #2 on: Apr 17, 2009, 12:14PM »
col, you're getting into ferrari territory there. they spent an absolute ass load on getting that system to work well and as quick as it does.

Offline noss

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 17, 2009, 01:18PM »
remove the clutch pedal, stick a button on the floor where it would be, have a super mega solenoid where the slave cylinder normally is, tap button, clutch goes, change, foot off button, clutch engage. i dunno though hey, would be hard to know if you hit the button correctly or not until the gears go crunch :P

edit: alternative to the gay button on the floor idea.. a switch in your h-pattern to engage and disengage the clutch, getting timing right would be painful in the development stages, but once done.. :)
« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2009, 01:20PM by noss »

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Offline sxtacy

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 17, 2009, 01:59PM »
edit: alternative to the gay button on the floor idea.. a switch in your h-pattern to engage and disengage the clutch, getting timing right would be painful in the development stages, but once done.. :)

hmm, So that would be effectively a clutchless manual. Having a sensor in the H pattern, then set it up for how long it takes to change gears.

That would be worth doing then, catch up to the audis  ;D

Or, you could have a sensor in every position, so when you change from first to second, it would disengage the clutch, then sense it's in neutral, then engage when you are in gear again. (fixed  ;))

And then hook it up to a button on the dash and get an electronic lever to change gear for you  :)
« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2009, 05:24PM by sxtacy »
nothing.

Offline pedro666

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 17, 2009, 02:02PM »
go tiptronoc!!
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Offline chr1S

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 17, 2009, 02:09PM »
Solenoid would burn out because it would be charged the whole time, too slow to build up magnetic strength at the flick of a switch, when you'r racing, you must be on the clutch for what, under a second on a quick shift?

I think there is alot of other areas to worry about before quick clutch changes when the cars barely spin the wheels shifting to 2nd quick lol
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Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #7 on: Apr 17, 2009, 04:27PM »
Possible or not really?

not really.

/thread
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Offline Jono

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 17, 2009, 05:00PM »
I'd definitely put this in the too-hard basket.

You'd have to work out how to sense when to engage/disengage the clutch (btw engage is foot off the pedal, disengage is pedal to the floor) -switches in the h-pattern, button on floor/dash. IMO the button idea would still need alot of co-ordination. H-pattern switches would be hard to set up.

Speed of clutch actuation: you'd need to have some sort of gradual change between engaged and disengaged, otherwise the car would kangaroo hop between changes. This clutch actuation speed would also need to change as to whether you're taking off quickly or slowly or changing gears quickly or slowly.

I would look at using a pneumatic actuator as the master cylinder controller if I was to do it.



It'd be easier and more user friendly to fit an automatic transmission and modify the shifts (i.e. shift kit) rather than automating your manual box.



Flappy paddles could be adapted to the KA24's electronically controlled auto gearbox. It's essentially the same thing as using the L2D(D) positions on the T-bar.
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Offline chr1S

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 17, 2009, 05:21PM »
I was about to say, what about pneumatic shifters?
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Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 17, 2009, 06:10PM »
go sequential like a motorbike. screw the H pattern it is for girls. you'd probably half your gear change time even when running with the stock clutch system.
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Offline SSS

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 19, 2009, 11:17AM »
Ikeya formula do a paddle shifter / sequential conversion for h pattern clutched manuals...looks pretty good but change speeds seem a little slow.

Offline chr1S

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #12 on: Apr 19, 2009, 01:06PM »
Seen that on a few AE86's, I was actually trying to find it the other day for this post but I didn't know Ikeya Forumla made it, you got any links on it?
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Offline hrmmmm

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 19, 2009, 04:48PM »
http://www.nengun.com/ikeya-formula/sequential-shifter

Is this what your after, I couldn't make much sense out of it, due to the letters and words being crossed over and jumbled, possibly have to be a meber to view it proper.

Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 20, 2009, 01:13AM »
I think that ikeya shifter (at least one of them) uses a roundabout way of being a sequential...

ie the standard transmission is used and the selector forks are all still the same... so really its a sequential mounted to an H pattern.

which is a mess of moving parts. :S

but it also made to order, so possibly with some of the transmissions you can attach the sequential shift directly to the selector forks.

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Offline chr1S

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 20, 2009, 09:41AM »
I always knew it used a ratchet way of operating onto the standard linkage setup, but I want more info when SSS says it's slow in operation.
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Offline SSS

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #16 on: Apr 21, 2009, 10:13AM »
chris, ikeya have a bunch of vids on their site with their paddle shifters, shift speed didn't seem any quicker than a traditional h pattern box.

Offline LoW GLi

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #17 on: Apr 22, 2009, 12:05PM »
Im friends with a guy (Ryal Harris) who has been driving for the Brute Utes for a few years, and he said that they used to (not sure why they stopped) have a Momo gearknob, that when you pushed or pulled on the gearknob, it has some sort of a sensor that engaged the clutch. Still had a pedal clutch for launching etc. But to quick shift, just the hand touching the knob was all that was needed.. pretty cool i thought!!

Offline chr1S

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #18 on: Apr 22, 2009, 01:42PM »
You sure it's not a strain gauge that's linked to the ecu for shift cut?
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Offline sxtacy

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 22, 2009, 02:37PM »
Im friends with a guy (Ryal Harris) who has been driving for the Brute Utes for a few years, and he said that they used to (not sure why they stopped) have a Momo gearknob, that when you pushed or pulled on the gearknob, it has some sort of a sensor that engaged the clutch. Still had a pedal clutch for launching etc. But to quick shift, just the hand touching the knob was all that was needed.. pretty cool i thought!!

That's what my idea was.
nothing.

Offline Colby

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 22, 2009, 03:35PM »
Thats exactly what i was trying to get across from the start.  So clearly, if that brute utes thing is true, the idea is not so stupid and quite possible.  If only we could get details of this Brute Ute shifter.

Clearly the hard bit is the solanoid and maybe time co-ordination.

Too hard basket for a DIY, but nice to think about and dream.  The person to work it out in a kit could potentially make a bit of $$ I'd imagine.

Offline SSS

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 22, 2009, 04:01PM »
All the brute utes type shifters consist of is the aforementioned strain gauge, which is tied to an input for the ecu to enact a second rev limiter to enable them to keep their foot planted on the accelerator between changes.

Offline LoW GLi

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 22, 2009, 05:00PM »
Chr1s/SSS im not sure where u got that info from, not saying that ur wrong. But as i said in my previous post, they USED to use this technology where a hand on the gearknob, would engage the clutch. They do not use this system anymore. So this 2nd rev limiter it enacts could very well be the case, but i still stand by what i said :P


Offline chr1S

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #23 on: Apr 22, 2009, 09:18PM »
V8 Supercars use sequential/H pattern gearbox with a strain gauge on the shifter which enables the shift cut on the ECU (I've worked on this part first hand). If the V8SC main game cars don't use them, why would the show pony media orientated bogan interest only event brute utes run them?

They might, but I highly doubt it.
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Offline Jono

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #24 on: Apr 23, 2009, 01:06PM »
I know race bikes run a similar thing. They have a strain gauge or microswich on the gear pedal to cut ignition to the engine on upshifts, allowing full throttle clutchless shifts.

For the same sort of clutchless shifts in a car you'd need a dog box too.
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Offline DeathPlaza

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 25, 2009, 09:44AM »
from what i heard what you are explaining is exactly what is used on the smart car, which is partly why it got such horrible rating because it shifts super hard for a tiny low power car.  i have heard of other cars that dont require clutch, and i even heard there was an american car designed with a stick that had a fluid coupling so you could come to a stop with the clutch engaged and it wouldn't stall.  lazy bastards. 

but in the long run, a real planet gear automatic with the right controls, or a full sequential or dual clutch is probably better.  dual clutch is my favorite idea personally.  or cvt if they can make them more durable.  i think dual clutch or full sequential are the best for road racing.  planet gear automatic has the most potential for drag racing, and cvt is probably the best for daily driving.  2 cents 4 u.
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Offline petey

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #26 on: Aug 20, 2009, 12:38PM »
sorry for posting on an old thread.
theres a company in melbourne called city clutch
who do semi automatic installs
they basicly just replace the clutch with a button on the gear stick to go from manual to semi automatic from what i understand
www.cityclutch.com.au
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2009, 08:11PM by Jono »

Offline Colby

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #27 on: Aug 20, 2009, 02:11PM »
That is pretty cool and exactly what I was talking about.  Clearly with micro computers involved there is some complication and not as strait forward as in my vision.
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Offline petey

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #28 on: Aug 21, 2009, 10:43AM »
yeah im seriously thinking about getting that done now  ;D

Offline fraz

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #29 on: Aug 22, 2009, 06:35AM »
you could do it yourself, you can run it off a powersteer pump, and run a hydraulic slave cylinder, then you just need to program a pic to control the valve that controls the flow to the valve, the higher the rpm , the faster the valve operation, so for slow takeoffs, you rest your foot on gthe pedal and it engages slowly, step on it and it drops it etc...

easy to do if you can do all the things yourself, but very costly if you cant. I met a guy at home that did it himself and it works very well.
cost under 1k
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Offline dozer

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Re: semi automatic mod?
« Reply #30 on: Aug 26, 2009, 06:32PM »
a gear stick also has a natural timing built into it, if a shift
is too fast the box will not take it forever. sincro's need some time.
even a short shifter has to be thought out well.
so is your box also set up for flat out shifts? ;D