Author Topic: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(  (Read 5525 times)

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Offline imaspy

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wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« on: Jun 2, 2004, 05:58PM »
hi all.

went to drive to work this morning. here is the scenario.
engine = cold - didnt give it any warmup time (i seldom do)
when i took of, changed to second, somewhere low in the rev range (bout 2500rpm), the car shudders twice.... wasnt going hard at all either. then i take off again, car does it again. exactly the same way. then it disappears.
wht could it be?!
it looked like evenflows car on the cruise where his alternator gave up. but it could be so mny things couldnt it? gearbox? missing a tooth on a cog? fuel lines? misfiring? alternator? clutch!? please help poor me  :( ??? :-[ :-\ :'(

thanks in advance guys.
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Offline BoGAn

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #1 on: Jun 2, 2004, 06:06PM »
I shudder all over the place when in low revs in 2nd. I thik im missing a few teeth. Box is headed on the way out i think. Hoping it will last me at least another year or two.

Offline Insu

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #2 on: Jun 2, 2004, 06:46PM »
Same thing happens to me when the car is cold, and first drive it.

I talked to a couple of mechanics about it and aparently what they (mostly) rekon is that inside the gearbox, all the fluid drains to the bottom (everyone knows this, this is why you're meant to let your car warm up for a minute of two, to get oil etc coating all the moving parts before putting the parts under load)
But the guys rekon that the pump is just pumping the fluid over the top and for some reason isnt coating the gear surfaces properly, hence when you put it into gear and you get some clunking, there isnt any fluid and it well.... clunks...

Way to get around it? When you start your car up, before you drive off, move the gear stick around a bit maybe? Give it a go?
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Offline RichTRX

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #3 on: Jun 4, 2004, 11:59AM »
Does is sound/feel like fuel starvation?

I had a similar problem for a few months before my fuel pump packed it in. Car would feel like it was running out of fuel and cough once or twice. Then it would be fine. It was the fuel pump on its way out. Eventually the car just wouldn't start and left me stranded at Marion Shopping Centre.

If this happens to anyone, try starting the car while getting someone to bang in the middle of the fuel tank (underneath the boot). This is how I finally got my car started (with the RAA guy's help).
His: 2001 Audi S4 biturbo quattro 6sp, Nogaro Blue/black leather recaros, microsilver trim, bose 10sp, SSAC 2.5" twin turboback, RS4 rear sway, 25% tint

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Bro driving: 1990 Nissan Pintara TRX 5sp Red, 16" Rozzis, Lukey 4-2-1 ext, 2.5" full exhaust, hi-flow cat, cone cai, stg 3 chip,  low Kings, GT Gas shocks, Urethane bushings, slotted front rotors, 398000k and still going strong; 0-100 in around 7.2-7.4 seconds

Offline noss

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #4 on: Jun 4, 2004, 12:24PM »
yeah i was going to say fuel as well.. when you say shudder imaspy, do you mean a shudder as in completely loss of power very suddenly and the shudder being quite harsh?


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Offline imaspy

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #5 on: Jun 4, 2004, 02:15PM »
hmmm... the car does jerk, and bunnyhop, and it does feel harsh... and for that brief spilt second, no power.... and ever since i got the car, the fuel pump has always made an audible whine... ???
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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #6 on: Jun 4, 2004, 02:26PM »
when mine is cold (like 7am) it make a pit of a clunk changing into second, and it only dose it once so maybe it's just cold and the oil hasn't had a chance to coat all the gears
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Offline SSS

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #7 on: Jun 4, 2004, 02:44PM »
My fuel pump whines on occasion also.
Have you noticed when you first start your car, and it's completely cold, that if you give it a rev, it cuts out and bogs down before returning to normal high idle rpms?
I believe this is due to too much fuel at cold start, and when you rev it, it's just running way too rich, and misfires.

Offline RichTRX

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #8 on: Jun 4, 2004, 03:26PM »
Might be an idea just to give it a minute or two at idle until the rpm's drop to normal idle speed before you drive off, just to warm up.

My fuel pump whines when the fuel level is really low. It's usually my indicator to not drive the car unless it's to the nearest servo.
His: 2001 Audi S4 biturbo quattro 6sp, Nogaro Blue/black leather recaros, microsilver trim, bose 10sp, SSAC 2.5" twin turboback, RS4 rear sway, 25% tint

Hers: MY99.5 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro GP Edition AVANT 5-sp, phantom black, black leather buckets/walnut/sunroof, 2.5" D&T Turboback, K04-015, N75J, 710N DV

Bro driving: 1990 Nissan Pintara TRX 5sp Red, 16" Rozzis, Lukey 4-2-1 ext, 2.5" full exhaust, hi-flow cat, cone cai, stg 3 chip,  low Kings, GT Gas shocks, Urethane bushings, slotted front rotors, 398000k and still going strong; 0-100 in around 7.2-7.4 seconds

Offline noss

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #9 on: Jun 4, 2004, 04:32PM »
my old fuel pump whined, not that you could call it a whine, more of a low groan, but i'm guessing thats what you guys are talking about.. i was informed that it was on its last legs so i replaced it, the brand new pump makes the exact same noise.

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Offline SSS

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #10 on: Jun 4, 2004, 05:00PM »
Rich, that's why even if i'm in a real hurry i give the car at least 30seconds before i drive off. When ever i let the car warmup it's usually between 2-4 minutes.

Offline su8l1m3

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #11 on: Jun 12, 2004, 10:49PM »
Heya pplz...   I encountered a similar problem today...  I've gotta 91 ca20e pinny (auto)...   Well, while i was workin actually...   I'd take off and yeah, it'd just lull heaps like it was running outof something and then accelerate like an overgrown brick!  I'm not sure of the exact problem but it's startin to worry me heaps... It usually takes off nicely but yeah....  Car was warm and all...  If it is the fuel pump how much would it cost for a replacement?   And would it be this problem even if the car was running at it's proper temperature...?

Offline RichTRX

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #12 on: Jun 13, 2004, 10:02PM »
Rich, that's why even if i'm in a real hurry i give the car at least 30seconds before i drive off. When ever i let the car warmup it's usually between 2-4 minutes.

very good SSS... that's what I try to do all the time as well. I can't always do it but I try to when I can. :)

su8l1m3 - new fuel pumps vary in price - the Bosch pumps that come with the Nissan fuel pump / sender assy. are rumoured to be $400+, but cheaper alternatives are available at Autobahn, etc for (I believe) around the $150-$200 mark.

I bought a 2nd hand pump with about 140k on it for $129 from a wrecker - it was the Bosch one and it hasnt failed since.
« Last Edit: Jun 13, 2004, 10:08PM by RichTRX »
His: 2001 Audi S4 biturbo quattro 6sp, Nogaro Blue/black leather recaros, microsilver trim, bose 10sp, SSAC 2.5" twin turboback, RS4 rear sway, 25% tint

Hers: MY99.5 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro GP Edition AVANT 5-sp, phantom black, black leather buckets/walnut/sunroof, 2.5" D&T Turboback, K04-015, N75J, 710N DV

Bro driving: 1990 Nissan Pintara TRX 5sp Red, 16" Rozzis, Lukey 4-2-1 ext, 2.5" full exhaust, hi-flow cat, cone cai, stg 3 chip,  low Kings, GT Gas shocks, Urethane bushings, slotted front rotors, 398000k and still going strong; 0-100 in around 7.2-7.4 seconds

Offline Xedus101

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #13 on: Jun 13, 2004, 10:03PM »
My Corsair GL seems to have the same problem. It's also becoming harder to start the car. When cold if you accelerate hard it does nothing then kinda kicks in and goes. Is this the same problem? I used to think it was a gearbox thing because of the rough changes in the auto. Maybe i'll go get the fuel pump looked at.

Offline Jtas

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #14 on: Jun 14, 2004, 04:29AM »
If it is the fuel pump how much would it cost for a replacement?

noss said this in the "changing your fuel pump" DIY thread:

Quote
.... i know that it was $100. just ring your local repco & ask for it there. it fits many other cars like falcons & commodores. the pump is actually sold in a box labled as a "fuel miser" brand but it is in actual fact a vdo pump (its marked on the pump itself.)

Offline RichTRX

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #15 on: Jun 15, 2004, 12:51AM »
Just a word of warning - it's definitely worth buying the pump and installing it yourself. It is a fairly straightforward job but you will be charged A LOT for it at a workshop. My dad paid $399 for his Festiva's new pump (installed) and my mate (with a Corsair) payed nearly $400 as well (with the cheaper pump).

Keep in mind that you also need the rubber O-Ring. I priced this from Ford as being $28 but didn't get a price from Nissan. The O-Ring is quite large and it usually becomes quite stretched over time, so you'll need a new one or else you will develop fuel pressure problems, which will make the car run like a bucket of snot when you try to start it.
His: 2001 Audi S4 biturbo quattro 6sp, Nogaro Blue/black leather recaros, microsilver trim, bose 10sp, SSAC 2.5" twin turboback, RS4 rear sway, 25% tint

Hers: MY99.5 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro GP Edition AVANT 5-sp, phantom black, black leather buckets/walnut/sunroof, 2.5" D&T Turboback, K04-015, N75J, 710N DV

Bro driving: 1990 Nissan Pintara TRX 5sp Red, 16" Rozzis, Lukey 4-2-1 ext, 2.5" full exhaust, hi-flow cat, cone cai, stg 3 chip,  low Kings, GT Gas shocks, Urethane bushings, slotted front rotors, 398000k and still going strong; 0-100 in around 7.2-7.4 seconds

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #16 on: Jun 15, 2004, 01:17AM »
you might also want to check for oil in distributor.. not supposed to be there.

Offline Jtas

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #17 on: Jun 16, 2004, 08:06PM »
Keep in mind that you also need the rubber O-Ring. I priced this from Ford as being $28 but didn't get a price from Nissan.

how did you get a price from ford? pretty much every corsair part is no longer available to dealers ???

Offline Budgie

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #18 on: Jun 16, 2004, 08:19PM »
I can still get new Corsair parts in geelong... I bought the last parker they had a few months ago.
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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #19 on: Jun 16, 2004, 08:36PM »
yeah theyve probably got stock that theyve never sold, but you cant order the parts in from the factory.

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #20 on: Jun 16, 2004, 08:49PM »
Oh yeah.  I know what you mean now.  There are heaps of parts in geelong seeing as its the home of Ford in australia, but they are just coming out of old 'stock piles'.
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Offline LoW GLi

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #21 on: Mar 14, 2010, 11:47AM »
My Pintara has 163000K on it and is playing silly buggers too... changed the pod filter (Noss style CAI setup) and the old pod filter was like cardboard and rather dirty...

Thought this would fix my prob but didnt, also have done the fuel filter... When car is cold, revving over 2 but less than 2.5K RPM, it sounds like it drops a cylinder and sorta "bounces" around the same RPM (loss of power can be felt aswell) but only seems to do it when cold...

Sometimes it happens too when i slowly rev the motor to about 4K then do a quick gear change, and plant my foot... seems to be starving the motor of fuel... will have to look into fuel pump....


Offline SSS

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #22 on: Mar 14, 2010, 07:15PM »

Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #23 on: Mar 14, 2010, 11:52PM »
it definitely sounds like somethings wrong with the fuel pump or even just the fuel filter is clogged.

just my two cents, letting the engine idle for extended periods before driving is actually worse than driving straight away... at idle the fuel mixture is higher than at optimum revs, meaning unburnt fuel can often get through and do all sorts of shite over time.

Dr Karl told me.
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Offline SSS

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #24 on: Mar 15, 2010, 08:17AM »
it definitely sounds like somethings wrong with the fuel pump or even just the fuel filter is clogged.

Well, considering we're digging this thread back up, I investigated the fuel delivery side of things some time back.

It's definitely not a fuel pressure problem (on my KA anyway), from key to On to idling for approx 1min then a short drive round the block, the fuel pressure never dropped below the minimum as stated in the FSM.

I still get a similar (but not as harsh) stumbling from both my U12's, but it's very periodic these days. That being said, for it to be a fuel issue, it would have to happen all the time. I don't believe it is related to any aspect of the SCV system either (which has the ability to potentially cause similar symptoms) because my black U12 has this SCV system deleted completely, whereas it is still fully intact on the daily TRX.
It's not something that can be isolated to the ecu either.
I tend to think it's an electrical issue that I have yet to find. :(

Quote
just my two cents, letting the engine idle for extended periods before driving is actually worse than driving straight away... at idle the fuel mixture is higher than at optimum revs, meaning unburnt fuel can often get through and do all sorts of shite over time.

Dr Karl told me.

This statement makes no sense....when an engine is cold and started, the ecu is comparing the coolant temperature it senses in the engine to a fuel enrichment table in the ecu, and consequently injects more fuel if the engine is cold. This is known as "cold start enrichment" and is found on every EFI engine in existence. It's a known fact that cold engines aren't too happy when they are at their coldest.
As the temperature increases, the amount of fuel is reduced until the temperature threshold for determining "cold start enrichment" is met and the normal fuel / idle tables are used.

Idling a cold engine for a few mins allows your oil temps to come up to assist in preventing damage to all of your important rotational components within the engine.


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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #25 on: Mar 17, 2010, 02:39AM »
What you guys need is an oscilloscope that outputs to a log file.

Hook it up to the crank angle sensor in the dizzy, wait til it faults and look back through the logs to see if the CAS signal dies at that point.
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Offline MAG86

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #26 on: Mar 17, 2010, 10:03AM »
also check the throttle body sensor connector.
if they get corrosion in them they give an erattic signal, telling the ECCS that its shut, then open then WOT all over the place. sometimes as the car warms up to conductivity smoothes out. Ive seen this on my old KA24e, and a few RB30e's too, and L24e's
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Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: wtf?! crazy unknown problem!! :(
« Reply #27 on: Mar 23, 2010, 09:26PM »

As the temperature increases, the amount of fuel is reduced until the temperature threshold for determining "cold start enrichment" is met and the normal fuel / idle tables are used.

Idling a cold engine for a few mins allows your oil temps to come up to assist in preventing damage to all of your important rotational components within the engine.



maybe Dr Karl is wrong then...

Quote from: Dr Karl

I realised that something I had done for a long time was actually wrong. Previously, I tried to be "kind" to my car's engine by giving it a nice long idle before I pulled away from the kerb. But when I did some research, I found that long idle was actually harming the engine, and the environment, and my wallet.

The powertrain of a car is the mechanical stuff that makes it go. The power starts at the engine, goes through the gearbox and finishes at the driving wheels. Les Ryder, the chief powertrain engineer from Ford, USA, said in the January 2007 issue of Popular Mechanics, "Engines run best at their design temperature". In other words, Mr. Ryder is telling us that engines run most cleanly and efficiently somewhere between 85°C and 95°C. Idling is the worst way to warm up your engine. Gentle driving is the best way.

The Canadian Office of Energy Efficiency agrees that the best way to warm up your engine is to drive it. Idling an engine is bad in so many ways. The fuel is not completely burnt, so it condenses in drops on the cylinder walls. This leads to both extra wear of the cylinder walls (because the fuel washes the lubricating oil off the walls), and unburnt fuel flowing down the walls and contaminating the oil in the sump. Idling also drops the temperature of the spark plugs, leading to dirty plugs, which can worsen your fuel consumption by some 5%.

You might have noticed a vapour coming out of the exhaust of some cars in the early morning. That vapour is not the oil vapour of a worn engine, but the normal water vapour from a cold engine. So the longer you idle the engine, the longer it will take to warm up, and so more water droplets will be deposited inside your exhaust system – making it rust sooner.

A long time of idling means that the engine will produce a lot more unwanted pollutants. For example, modern cars have catalytic converters. When they get to their normal operating temperature (400-800°C, which is a lot hotter than the engine), they convert nasty pollutants into much less nasty chemicals. And you guessed it, the quickest way for catalytic converters to get to their normal operating temperature is by driving, not idling. The longer the time that you idle your engine, the longer that your catalytic converter is too cold to do its job.

Canada has started a national campaign to reduce unnecessary idling of engines. There are similar regional campaigns in Japan and the UK, and in the USA, 13 states have now passed laws regulating idling of engines. People are now talking about the benefits of switching off your engine in traffic, if you are going to be stopped for more than 10 seconds.

When you idle a car, you get zero miles per gallon, lots of pollution, a hole in your wallet and a less efficient engine in the long run.
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