Author Topic: rattling at high revs  (Read 6512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
rattling at high revs
« on: Dec 19, 2009, 04:04PM »
Hey guys and girls. I've been searching a long time and have not been able to find any post similar to the issue I am having. My car is a Pintara TRX u12.

Well as the topic suggests when I drive above 3250rpm+ in any gear I can hear a sound coming from my engine, where in particular I do not know. Anything below this rev range is fine. It sounds similar to a rattling or metal hitting something but not as intense and is a constant sound if I keep pushing my car.

I had my Stage 3 antrx chip recently fitted like 2 weeks ago, and I am not sure if it is a result of the chip installation or if it was prior to. I also had my timing chain and tensioner thing fixed recently too.

Does anyone know what this is, how to fix, why this is happening and whether I should be concerned? If this topic was already covered my apologies but I just wasn't able to find it.

Thanks in advance.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #1 on: Dec 19, 2009, 06:06PM »
Sounds like timing chain slapping on the guides. Tensioner is not applying the correct tension to the chain guide.

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #2 on: Dec 20, 2009, 08:52AM »
noisy valves and lifters?

I know mine gets a bit noisy at certain revs but not at usual cruising revs.

Offline Asephx

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 379
  • Karma: +12/-10
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #3 on: Dec 20, 2009, 11:06AM »
Back when I had my TRX, I had a rattling sound in my engine too. Turned out to be the plastic timing chain guides, which had broken. There was a random bit of plastic guide bouncing around, plus the remaining part of the guide was hitting the chain because it wasn't properly secured due to the bit that broke off.

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #4 on: Dec 20, 2009, 02:05PM »
Thanks for the replies. Yeah I just checked my invoice from when I got my car fixed 2 months ago and it says:

Timing Cover & Oil Pump
Timing Chain
Guide Chain L/H & R/H
4 extra valves
Service Head

If the mechanic fixed all this should I be having this timing chain slapping/tensioner problem? Should I bring it back to him, or is this something that happened as a result of my driving somehow? Why does it make this sound at only high revs? Asephxwas it expensive to fix? I hate mechanics everyone is dodgy.
But I was driving last night and it was making that sound as usual, so I think Colby you might have the same problem as me. SSS how do I check my tensioner? I'm noob. Thanks again.

Offline Asephx

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 379
  • Karma: +12/-10
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #5 on: Dec 20, 2009, 07:03PM »
I never got it fixed for various reasons, and therefore my TRX died in the ass. There is a good chance the mechanic may not have repaired it properly, or something has come loose that he should look at. If it's an error on his part, you should only have to pay for parts and not labor

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #6 on: Dec 20, 2009, 09:41PM »
I seem to remember there being a little piston cylinder type thing which pushes out the tensioner.  If that is stuffed the guides won't tension the chain properly.  Is that correct guys?  And that might be something not covered in your reciept, but I would think should have been changed anyway.

I would say you are best off taking it back to them, its pretty hard to check yourself.

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #7 on: Dec 22, 2009, 01:20AM »
Thanks for the replies guys. Weird thing is I was driving down the freeway the other night and me and this mx6 were side by side going around 150 and then I had to exit.
Anyway, ever since that time I went 150, which is the fastest that I've gone with the new chip installed, the rattling has reduced. It's still there and I've been revving my car past 3250rpms to try and hear it but it's definitely not as loud anymore.

I'm confused as, but I'm still probably gonna take the car back to the mechanic next week sometime and hopefully he doesn't say some bull shit like "what sound, it sounds normal to me". Thanks for the replies again guys, appreciate it. 

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #8 on: Dec 22, 2009, 06:46AM »
can you get a vid up on youtube with the sound?

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #9 on: Dec 27, 2009, 09:41PM »
I've been away for the christmas period so I wasn't able to reply.

No I won't be able to post a video with the sound, because my intake will probably be too loud to be able to hear the rattle/metal sound from the recording.

But I will most likely be taking my car to the mechanic and tell him to check my tensioner or guide chains as mentioned above by you guys. Thanks.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #10 on: Jan 5, 2010, 08:44AM »
Hang on man...

The tensioner has the least tension on idle due to the low oil pressure in the engine. It doesn't make sense to me that the tensioner STARTS to rattle as the RPM's increase, if the tensioner was loose it should tighten as RPMs increase as this would bee more pressure exterted by the tensioner due to oil pressure.

Does it make this rattle noise on idle and while taking off/briefly as the revs may drop below normal levels due to the clutch coming out too fast for example?

Edit: Pretty worrying note, loud audible pinging?...The mechanic may have advanced the dizzy a little too far to think that "hey he will think the car goes better and come back to me" or some bullshit.
« Last Edit: Jan 5, 2010, 08:45AM by chr1S »
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #11 on: Jan 6, 2010, 06:41PM »
Hello everyone.

I got the update of this situation, if anyone is interested that is. I need to vent and I need advice.

I went to the mechanic yesterday and told him to check my guide chain, tensioner, timing chain because something is rattling.
He told me that the rattling at high revs is due to my extractor's/header's protection heat covering (it's a big metal cover) over my extractors/headers, or whatever you call it, is vibrating due to a broken bolt on the top RH corner making it rattle.
He then demonstrated this by revving the shit of my car to hear the sound, and then pressed a hammer on the cover and said to me "See? No sound". So I thought okay cool I'll bring it in to him tomorrow morning and I can pick it up later and drive home with peace of mind and no fucking sound.

Anyway, I picked up the car an hour ago today, and my extractor heat cover thing was gone and he told me after giving my car a test run there is no more rattling sound. So I test drove it and the sound was still there. I was pretty pissed off and told him it's still there and he says "it's an old car and it's normal". So I'm like okay should I knock him out now or later? hahahaha jokes.
But continuing seriously, I'm like how come you said it was that metal shit and it isn't? Rah rah rah time passes by and then he checks my car's timing with that flashing light shit. He then adjusts it and tells me to give it a run. So I'm driving and there's no rattle but there's also no fucking speed. I can see my rev's passing 4000rpm and my car is still slow. He then changes it back to normal for me and says "if you want no rattle sound you need to change the timing to make it slow, if you want speed then you have to hear the rattle".

So I choose the speed option, and he tells me he had to change my valve cover guide and bolts and labour and etc and bam $150 charge. What a rip.

So it seems that some/most mechanics are pretty shifty people, but more importantly wtf is this rattling I hear at high revs??? I don't hear it or have it at idle, only at high revs. And why would changing the timing make it go away? Is it true, slow no sound or high with sound? I don't wanna sacrifice power from a NA engine, that's just crazy.


Sorry for the long post. I definitely have more trust in the knowledge of members of antrx than mechanics. Thanks for reading.   


 

Offline Budgie

  • Dr. B Udgie - AWD FTW
  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 9411
  • Karma: +131/-33
  • Gender: Male
  • U12-U13
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #12 on: Jan 6, 2010, 10:48PM »
Pinging?
dont piss me off with your pillarless shit captain snappy wrist

Offline Sik_bb_trx

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #13 on: Jan 7, 2010, 07:46PM »

That mechanic guy fu#"d it, sound like pinging to me which will lead to a broken piston in no time, only replaceing 4 valves in a head service is suss, what was wrong with the valves in the first place, also there is only one timing point , just one there is no retard slow or advance fast crap the computer takes care of that, take it to someone who knows nissans to give you a second opiinion, then take him to consumer affairs and get your money back, dodgey mechanics shit me , thats why i became a mechanic lol

having said that without any of us hearing the noise it is very hard to diagnose the problem, any decent mechanic will be happy to have a listen and offer advice or  opinion for free dont let them suck you into leaving it with them for a couple of hours for 80 bucks or something

hope its some help

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #14 on: Jan 8, 2010, 11:08PM »
Hey guys. After doing some searching and reading on the site on pinging I think that might be it. Because when the mechanic changed my timing to make it "slower" the sound stopped, so by changing my timing it made it not "ping" anymore. Correct? I'm not too sure but it sounds more logical and better than what the mechanics been telling me.

I think chr1S's comment: "The mechanic may have advanced the dizzy a little too far to think that "hey he will think the car goes better and come back to me" or some bullshit" sounds like something that this mechanic would do.

My car had a problem with the tensioner and that in turn broke my timing chain and bent 4 valves or something like that Sik_bb_trx and that's why I took my car to this mechanic and why he fixed it like that. It's strange that you mention that my piston will stuff up because after I got my car back from him initially I noticed that when I was driving a few weeks later that there was black/grey smoke blowing out of my exhaust when I go fast, and when I took it back to the mechanic he said that it was already like that when I took it to him, but I would have honestly noticed if I had black smoke blowing out the back of my car. So maybe my piston rings are stuffed because of him changing my timing? Plus because of my driving too I guess. But yeah, this shit sucks. Just want my car to be running good.

But yeah all you guys have been heaps of help. Thanks. How can you guys know that it might be pinging and the mechanic not know? I'm really starting to hate mechanics, lols.
After reading up on timing and pinging I'm gonna change my timing back to 15-20 degrees or something myself. Is it hard to do yourself and does this changing of my timing affect the performance of the antrx stage 3 chip? I'm gonna borrow the flashing light thing from my mate and hopefully no more rattle at high revs aka pinging I think/hope because if this sound ain't pinging then it's time to raid a bank. Sorry for the long post. 


Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #15 on: Jan 9, 2010, 03:36PM »
You need to make sure you set it to 15deg btdc (before top dead center) and let the chip advance the timing.

What is happening at the moment is the chip is advancing the timing on top of the dizzy being advanced aswell.


To change the timing you need to

1. Start it and let it run until its up to operating temp.

2. Turn off engine.

3. Unplug the TPS (throttle position sensor) Its at the back of the throttle body. And connect timing light.

4. Start the engine, point the timing light to the crank pulley. You will see the timing marks on the crank, it should have a mark that will be white this will be 15deg btdc, otherwise it'll be the second mark from the front of the car (first on will be 20deg btdc).

5. Once set to 15deg btdc, turn car off. Plug in tps sensor and start engine. Check everything is as it should be and then let the chip do the work.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline pedro666

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2361
  • Karma: +26/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • VET NEO VVL is how I roll...
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #16 on: Jan 9, 2010, 11:59PM »
maybe your mate  with the light could give you a hand?
the words "race car" spelled backward still spell "race car"? 




skype_shannan801

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #17 on: Jan 11, 2010, 10:20PM »
Set it back to proper timing ASAP before you break a piston.

I ran my dizzy overadvanced and it wouldn't even idle! heh remember that noss :)
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #18 on: Jan 11, 2010, 11:58PM »
I think i explained to you a thousand times how to reset your timing, but there was one step you always missed.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #19 on: Jan 12, 2010, 06:40PM »
Hello everyone. I have the update for those who are interested. Venting is good.

I went to the mechanic today and asked him to change my timing back to "15 degrees before top dead center (btdc)" and told him that this is the stock configuration and that I want it like this. This was the most ideal solution because step "3. Unplug the TPS (throttle position sensor) Its at the back of the throttle body" means absolutely nothing to me so I figured it's probably better to not do it myself.

I thought I would see how the mechanic does it and just copy him later and fix and tune my timing myself from now on, but when he was changing my timing with the timing light and all, I noticed he did not unplug the TPS or anything at all. So I asked him "my friend says you should unplug the TPS (throttle positioning sensor) to do the timing properly?" and he had a "wtf are you talking about look on his face". So my plan of copying him doing my timing was pointless without knowing what the TPS is and so I asked him "can you show me where the TPS is" and he replies "you don't have to unplug the TPS to change the timing and your friend doesn't know what he's talking about".

At this point I realized this mechanic really sucks and doesn't know what the TPS is. I hope the TPS still being plugged in whilst changing the timing doesn't stuff up the car. My timing was changed back to 15 degrees btdc, and I now hear the rattle/pinging(?) again when I hit 3000rpm+. Is anyone here in melbourne willing to help me out? Can someone post a pic of the TPS? I've had enough of this shit. Sorry for the long post and thanks again.

Offline pedro666

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2361
  • Karma: +26/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • VET NEO VVL is how I roll...
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #20 on: Jan 13, 2010, 09:07AM »
are you running 98 octane petrol? maybe try a bottle of octain boost as a temporary fix?
the words "race car" spelled backward still spell "race car"? 




skype_shannan801

Offline Sik_bb_trx

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #21 on: Jan 13, 2010, 03:48PM »

Although I think it says in the book to unplug the TPS when doing the timing I never do with no adverse affects, meh im to lazy to unplug it, FYI its the little black box on the side of the throttle body (ie where the accelerator cable connects )

that was a useless post im out of advice, get it over to one of the melbourne guys houses to have a geeze

 ;D

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #22 on: Jan 13, 2010, 04:30PM »
If you look at diagnostics software while the car is idling normally compared to when the tps is unplugged you'll notice some important things happen.

The aac control returns to default value, meaning the ecu won't compensate to idle properly.
The timing will remain at 15deg btdc electronically, this is the biggest thing as the ecu will electronically adjust the timing when your mechanically adjusting it. You will end up working against yourself.

Your better off doing things as design/manufactured because there is always a reason for it.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #23 on: Jan 16, 2010, 03:40PM »
You should try get the engine to idle as low as possible, which can be done by unplugging the tps, this way the ecu is NOT advancing the timing any further which of course will throw the mechanical timing out.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #24 on: Jan 19, 2010, 05:52PM »
Hey guys.

Thanks for all the help and advice, its been real handy. I'm gonna be doing my timing/dizzy adjustment tomorrow at a friend's place with the timing light, and I'm gonna definitely unplug the tps. Hopefully all will be good and easy and car will be running smoothly again. Thanks for the instructions. It's true how you should always do things as stated by the manufacturer cause it's there for a reason.
The petrol I am running is just regular unleaded. I know it's pretty fucking annoying having a noob asking alot of shit about how and why and what this and that is, aka me, but you gotta start off somewhere, true?

Thanks again boys.

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #25 on: Jan 19, 2010, 05:59PM »
Make sure you reply and let us know how it all goes. Also did you get the chip for the car to run normal unleaded?
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline jet

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #26 on: Jan 24, 2010, 07:53PM »
Hey guys. Here's the latest update.

My engine now makes that rattling noise throughout the whole rev range. Sometimes after driving for a long time the sound is more faint, but listening to my car on the street it sounds like my car is a lawn mower/about to explode with all that raspy rattling.
I thought it might be due to having a low oil level but I've checked my oil and everything is topped up. I'm going to be buying thicker oil something like 40w in a few days time so I'll see if that helps.
I also changed my timing on Thursday thanks to Kranzy's instructions (and yes I did unplug the tps-thanks to Sik_bb_trx for telling me where it was), and changed my timing to around 12 btdc but it is still making the rattle.
The antrx stage 3 chip I got for my car is for regular unleaded.

I have posted a video of my engine and the sound it is making on youtube lols, I'm getting desperate now and also this is probably the best way for everyone to understand what I've been talking about. When you watch the video keep an ear out for the raspy rattling tone it makes as it "decellerates" and keep in mind that it does make that same sound as I rev throughout the rev range now. Thanks again and sorry for the delayed post. Enjoy.

.com/watch?v=uiW09atcPqI

rattling at high revs nissan pintara trx


Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #27 on: Jan 24, 2010, 08:40PM »
Its not a leak in your exhaust at all? That'll make it sound very lawn mowerish...

Also next time you do your timing set it to 15. Thats what it should be at.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline pedro666

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2361
  • Karma: +26/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • VET NEO VVL is how I roll...
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #28 on: Jan 25, 2010, 12:24PM »
timing chain??
the words "race car" spelled backward still spell "race car"? 




skype_shannan801

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Re: rattling at high revs
« Reply #29 on: Feb 14, 2010, 07:39PM »
Doesn't really sound like a timing chain rattle to me, sounds like a loose exhaust shield or something like that.
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!