Author Topic: ITB'd KA24E  (Read 35761 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
ITB'd KA24E
« on: Dec 9, 2004, 07:48PM »
Posting this for those that are interested on the progress i will be making on my ITB's for my KA24E, it's hopefully beginning  all on saturday with the purchasing of the actual ITB's.
If you don't know what ITB's are, don't post in here ;D seriously, feel free to ask questions as i don't expect many people to undertake such an extreme intake system mod.

I will post pics and tell everyone what the ITB's are from when i have them in my possession (hopefully) on saturday, otherwise i'll be reverting back to my 100% custom ITB's.

I'm very optimistic on what these will do for the KA once the ecu is reprogrammed to suit, i am expecting no less than 10kW at the wheels increase in peak power, mid range torque should go through the roof which is what really matters ;) and should be done for all under $500.
The cross sectional area for flow through these throttles increases approx 45% over the stock tb, backing my theory that the intake manifold on the E is its primary let down.

And yes, i am still going to turbo as well.  ;D

Offline Rake

  • vrrrmm sssssh pstch
  • antrx cruise monkey
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3216
  • Karma: +60/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • quack
    • http://www.tldr.com.au
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #1 on: Dec 9, 2004, 07:58PM »
Well I don't know what an ITB is, but from my acute powers of estimation it's the throttle body or part thereof?

Quote
mid range torque should go through the roof

I understood that quite clearly. And it sounds good! So, yes, carry on

Offline weasel

  • nsw local moderator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1550
  • Karma: +38/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • ooooweeeooooo
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #2 on: Dec 9, 2004, 08:38PM »
very nice SSS it will be great to see up and running
"Noss is God"

Offline Pinsair

  • ka24e owner
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1046
  • Karma: +14/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #3 on: Dec 9, 2004, 08:41PM »
Well I don't know what an ITB is, but from my acute powers of estimation it's the throttle body or part thereof?

Individual throttle bodies? as in the same as quad tb's? that'd be my guess anyway
good work sss

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13880
  • Karma: +275/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #4 on: Dec 9, 2004, 08:58PM »
yeh thats what he means.. as you know i'm very keen to see your progress as well adam.

with a 45% inrease in cross sectional area i'd expect top end power to increase more than 10kw. although i guess we've both learnt our lesson about being optimistic with power. i'm guessing the main factor of these itb's that you're buying is that they keep the velocity of the air quite high which is what creates so much torque?

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #5 on: Dec 10, 2004, 08:36AM »
ITB: Individual Throttle Body, same as quad tb's.

That's right noss, intake charge velocity is kept higher to promote more complete and faster cylinder filling; these should hopefully increase the Volumetric Efficiency (VE) of the engine, it's ability to breathe.

Just another note to mention that these are slightly smaller in diameter than what i was going to originally use, however driveability should be much better with these ones.

Offline Jtas

  • Sarcasminator
  • antrx cruise monkey
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 4125
  • Karma: +69/-28
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #6 on: Dec 10, 2004, 09:57AM »
awesome stuff, can't wait to find out about the results :D

Offline FLOGTARA

  • 300ZX FANATIC
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2561
  • Karma: +70/-62
  • Gender: Male
  • Your mother's got a wooden leg with a kickstand!
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #7 on: Dec 10, 2004, 07:50PM »
Coolies man.  Quad's sounds like a wicked move. What ya gunna do about a plenum chamber r are you just gunna run straight filters??

If you run filters you'll be runnin some hot engine air!

What size diameter are the thraots??

The induction note should sound fuckin awesome!!!

Pics plzz  8)
1990 Z32 2 Seater N/A 5spd
Mods, modified cats, cat back exhaust, HKS air filter, cyn-r-g lightened flywheel, aluminium underdrive pulley, Super HD clutch.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #8 on: Dec 11, 2004, 10:50AM »
Picked them up this morning, they are from a `02 Suzuki GSXR 1000. I've already begun removing the secondary butterflies, only have to remove the shaft.
They're 42mm at the throat of the throttles, the inlet starts at 50mm and tapers down to 42mm.

A complete custom plenum is being fab'd up soon, i can't run these open even if i wanted to because the KA ecu does not utilize a MAP sensor. The plenum needs to withstand around 20+psi of boost too.  ;D


Oh, just as a side note, any melbournians looking for these, good luck, the only other wrecker i found in melbourne carrying them wanted $1k and would not separate the TPS/Injectors etc. I paid $200 for the itb's minus the electronics, if i wanted them he said they'd only cost me another hundred.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline Budgie

  • Dr. B Udgie - AWD FTW
  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 9411
  • Karma: +131/-33
  • Gender: Male
  • U12-U13
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #9 on: Dec 11, 2004, 03:08PM »
Crazy! This is gonna be one serious KA adam! :D
dont piss me off with your pillarless shit captain snappy wrist

Offline Rake

  • vrrrmm sssssh pstch
  • antrx cruise monkey
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3216
  • Karma: +60/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • quack
    • http://www.tldr.com.au
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #10 on: Dec 11, 2004, 11:42PM »
Excuse my idiotism, but whats the diffrence of these over the stocker?

Would I be correct in assuming:

- Bigger, better designed plumbing for improved airflow (especially when used in forced induction setups)
- Are those 4 butteryfly valves? Does the stock TB only have one before all of the plumbing that goes to the cylinders?

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #11 on: Dec 12, 2004, 09:41AM »
Excuse my idiotism, but whats the diffrence of these over the stocker?

Would I be correct in assuming:

- Bigger, better designed plumbing for improved airflow (especially when used in forced induction setups)
- Are those 4 butteryfly valves? Does the stock TB only have one before all of the plumbing that goes to the cylinders?

No idiotism here Rake, you're right about what you thought.
The stock tb is approx 62mm in diameter, each individual throttle plate in my ITB's is 42mm.
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the stock tb: .003m^2
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the ITB's: .0055m^2
So that's an increase in cross sectional area of approx 45%.
It's not necessarily considered "bigger" intake plumbing, just better; some people don't bother with ITB's in FI setups as they see no point, however i only see positives. ITB's are the only way to go for a hardcore NA engine fullstop.

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #12 on: Dec 12, 2004, 10:31AM »
This is a super cool concept.  I'll be keen to see the outcome!
I would think that to have this effective you would need to upgrade the AFM to the Z32 ones. cos that seems to be the other major letdown on the KA

How bout the KA24de? possabilities of fitting ITB's to it?

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #13 on: Dec 12, 2004, 11:13AM »
I would think that to have this effective you would need to upgrade the AFM to the Z32 ones. cos that seems to be the other major letdown on the KA
I have one in the garage waiting to go in ;D

Quote
How bout the KA24de? possabilities of fitting ITB's to it?
Of course it's possible. ANYTHING is possible. Just depends on how much fabrication you want to do. I am keeping my eyes open for a DE head too. :)

Offline Milford

  • resident clown
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2106
  • Karma: +21/-35
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #14 on: Dec 12, 2004, 02:16PM »
i saw a SSS pulsar, with an SR20 run mid-high 13's at the track, NA, with a quad TB setup
definitely a good investment
and lets not forget the Quad TB GTI-R engine, a lovely piece of work

Offline Rake

  • vrrrmm sssssh pstch
  • antrx cruise monkey
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3216
  • Karma: +60/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • quack
    • http://www.tldr.com.au
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #15 on: Dec 12, 2004, 02:43PM »
No idiotism here Rake, you're right about what you thought.
The stock tb is approx 62mm in diameter, each individual throttle plate in my ITB's is 42mm.
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the stock tb: .003m^2
Potential airflow cross sectional area of the ITB's: .0055m^2
So that's an increase in cross sectional area of approx 45%.
It's not necessarily considered "bigger" intake plumbing, just better; some people don't bother with ITB's in FI setups as they see no point, however i only see positives. ITB's are the only way to go for a hardcore NA engine fullstop.

Awesome :) I don't know much mechanics, but I'm just putting simple theory and common sense together.

Offline FLOGTARA

  • 300ZX FANATIC
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2561
  • Karma: +70/-62
  • Gender: Male
  • Your mother's got a wooden leg with a kickstand!
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #16 on: Dec 13, 2004, 08:23PM »
They look good man.  Your also going to have to weld some interesting pipe's up to the throttle bodies as i am assuming there is no chance in hell they will line up with the stock inlet ports..... ::)

Fuckin good score tho  8) ;D
1990 Z32 2 Seater N/A 5spd
Mods, modified cats, cat back exhaust, HKS air filter, cyn-r-g lightened flywheel, aluminium underdrive pulley, Super HD clutch.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #17 on: Dec 14, 2004, 08:33AM »
I've already begun cutting up my stock manifold to suit. May have pics tonite.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #18 on: Dec 14, 2004, 01:11PM »
One observation is that the stock manifold looks to have very turbulent flow due to a number of factors, the main one being the swirl valves, which have been long removed.

Offline Loop

  • Token Old Fart
  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
  • Karma: +14/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Old and busted ...
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #19 on: Dec 15, 2004, 07:38AM »
One observation is that the stock manifold looks to have very turbulent flow due to a number of factors, the main one being the swirl valves, which have been long removed.

I was under the impression that swirl valves were a good thing as they kept the atomised fuel in suspension due to higher velocity....
209rwkW stock ... yes, it's a U12!!

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #20 on: Dec 15, 2004, 08:37AM »
No, they're only there to help intake velocity at low engine speed and at certain loads. I removed them because these ITB's *should* have significantly higher intake velocity and less turbulent laminar flow to offset the effect of removing them.

Testing with desktop dyno 2000 revealed that low to mid range torque jumps by quite a bit, from memory i believe it was something like 13.5 Nm over stock. But that is only an approximation and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #21 on: Dec 16, 2004, 05:37PM »
Still mucking around with the adapter plates and how everything will be secured/sealed, unfortunately they won't be in before mid jan as my laser cutting place is very busy.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #22 on: Jan 29, 2005, 09:23AM »
Nothing new to report as of yet, although i have my set of 460cc secondary injectors i can start working on for a fuel rail.

Offline ZiiN

  • ANTRX Boost Whore
  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 741
  • Karma: +10/-11
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #23 on: Feb 2, 2005, 10:12AM »
SSS- im looking into getting this done for my car aswell (i dont have to do the fucking around cause of the aftermarket availablity for sr20 parts) but how does having the secondary injectors work? I understadn the principle as for me if im running low boost or off boost it uses the stock ones, and if im using high boost it would use the bigger ones... how doe u fit it all in? another bracket or? and the electrics?

Munch Munch 5.0L's For Lunch

Wolf 3Dv5 + controller
A'pexi 740cc Injectors
MSD Direct Fire Ignition system
Malpassi rising rate FPR
Walbro 500hp fuel pump
Front Mount
Turbo back 3in Exhuast
GT28RS turbo (soon to betuned ;) )

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #24 on: Feb 2, 2005, 02:24PM »
when on boost, all the injectors are activated, off boost only the stock ones are running.

Injector bungs are welded into the intake manifold further up from the stock points, mine will mount in the gsxr mounting holes. As far as electronics, my piggyback ecu will be mapped for this.
If you're going for a wolf or something like that, you'll have similar options to control such a setup.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #25 on: Mar 28, 2005, 03:20PM »
This project is at a stand still atm, mainly because i'm re-thinking the design of the runners and the plenum, plus trying to get the strut braces and CAI's done.

Offline bungs

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2401
  • Karma: +53/-25
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #26 on: Sep 20, 2005, 04:10AM »
This project is at a stand still atm, mainly because i'm re-thinking the design of the runners and the plenum, plus trying to get the strut braces and CAI's done.

Anything new to report back? Screw the cai's and braces, focus on this hehe.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #27 on: Sep 20, 2005, 08:44AM »
Jesus, SSS...Your beating me !!!  >:(

 :P Hope it all works out bud, you seem like one fkn smart kid, did you do any kind of mechanical engineering at uni/tafe ?

All these post's ive seen have always been mechanical minded and it sounds like you know what the hell your on about, nice mate !
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #28 on: Sep 20, 2005, 11:57AM »
Jesus, SSS...Your beating me !!! >:(

 :P Hope it all works out bud, you seem like one fkn smart kid, did you do any kind of mechanical engineering at uni/tafe ?

All these post's ive seen have always been mechanical minded and it sounds like you know what the hell your on about, nice mate !

Thanks kyrios, i'm actually currently in the last semester of my mechanical engineering degree. I hope it works out too!

Bungs, unfortunately cos it is my last semester, and last semester was just as bad as this one, i haven't been able to do anything on them but get the material i need to cut the flanges out that will be welded to the severely cut down stock manifold. I have absolutely everything i need to do them, except a TIG to weld aluminium but i've got someone lined up to do that for me.
Basically i couldn't give 2 shits about those CAI's and STB's i was going to do, between these ITB's, the GT3040 and the TiAL 44mm wastegate both waiting for an exhaust manifold, i've got plenty on my hands.
In 6 weeks it'll be a different story timewise ;D

Offline Pingu

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Blackbird
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #29 on: Sep 23, 2005, 01:10AM »
Have you decided your runner length between the Tb's and the intake ports on the head? This would be something you would tune for your scenario i would think.

Stock tb ID is 60.0mm at the throttle plate, which is solid for a turbo setup, but your quad tb's have a collectivley huge area !
This is what i want to do too. Might be a bit rugged resorting the idle air sources since they will be behind the throttle etc...?

If i had an SR20 id spend a mere 200 on GTIR plenum and Tb's (no elecs) and put everything on it to suit from original bits. I dont know if the sr20det head from the GTIR is the same as all the others, maybe it all only bolts up on that particular pulsar gtir sr20 head.


Offline bungs

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2401
  • Karma: +53/-25
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #30 on: Sep 23, 2005, 01:57AM »
Yeah I know first hand how time consuming uni is. Ah well, all in due time I suppose :)

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #31 on: Sep 23, 2005, 05:44PM »
Have you decided your runner length between the Tb's and the intake ports on the head? This would be something you would tune for your scenario i would think.

Stock tb ID is 60.0mm at the throttle plate, which is solid for a turbo setup, but your quad tb's have a collectivley huge area !
This is what i want to do too. Might be a bit rugged resorting the idle air sources since they will be behind the throttle etc...?

If i had an SR20 id spend a mere 200 on GTIR plenum and Tb's (no elecs) and put everything on it to suit from original bits. I dont know if the sr20det head from the GTIR is the same as all the others, maybe it all only bolts up on that particular pulsar gtir sr20 head.



It was between 9-10" from memory.

I can tap in a fitting per runner to add to the fittings in the actual tbs that are already there, for either a vacuum source or idle control. the fittings that are there currently are after the throttle plates which is quite helpful.
I'm just going to be making adaptors to run the stock idle control valves, and mount them elsewhere in the engine bay via extended vac hoses.

Offline Pingu

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Blackbird
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #32 on: Sep 23, 2005, 08:21PM »
It was between 9-10" from memory.

I can tap in a fitting per runner to add to the fittings in the actual tbs that are already there, for either a vacuum source or idle control. the fittings that are there currently are after the throttle plates which is quite helpful.
I'm just going to be making adaptors to run the stock idle control valves, and mount them elsewhere in the engine bay via extended vac hoses.

Perfect. I want those ITB's now also :P

Offline ka-t

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
  • Karma: +0/-1
  • new kid on the block
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #33 on: Nov 9, 2005, 05:32PM »
hey guys, just wondering if there are any updates on the construction of your ITB.

Offline fraz

  • bandit!
  • antrx cruise monkey
  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +44/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #34 on: Nov 11, 2005, 05:03AM »

If i had an SR20 id spend a mere 200 on GTIR plenum and Tb's (no elecs) and put everything on it to suit from original bits. I dont know if the sr20det head from the GTIR is the same as all the others, maybe it all only bolts up on that particular pulsar gtir sr20 head.



Gti-r throttles wont fit non gti-r head, they have a different flange where it bolts to the head. I have seen then modified to fit a regular head, but i dont know how well it fitted.
Gti-r heads have the different intake flange, i think the dividers in the inlte ports extend closer to the manifold and they also have solid rocker pedestalls instead of hydraulic ones
you can get out of a ukrainian prison for 2 packs of marlbro and a bottle of vodka....

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #35 on: Nov 20, 2005, 01:04PM »
This has taken a back seat atm whilst i get the exhaust manifolds done.

Offline Cru1se_Missle

  • The AWD guinea pig
  • r&d team
  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 636
  • Karma: +16/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh what a feeling.........ATTESA
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #36 on: Nov 20, 2005, 01:25PM »
however i only see positives. ITB's are the only way to go for a hardcore NA engine fullstop.


I agree with you 100% Adam
A mate of mine did a K20A (typeR engine) conversion into his civivc and also utilising ITBs and goodam did this thing go....
It pulled 11.5 down the 1/4 if im not mistaken.

Nevertheless, this engine ur building will be torque monster.
If only I knew how to do these type of mods.....
All the best with it Adam, looking forward to see the outcome.
Tally whacker is a rock hard storm trooper with a purple helmet, made for crushing pink cookies
Gooni Goo Goo

Offline STU84W

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
  • Karma: +12/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Sifu
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #37 on: Mar 28, 2006, 02:40PM »
I know this is a revival of an old thread, but i saw a ka24e in hot 4s, and using a custom intake and quad throttle bodies pull 150hp, making it the Horsepower hero at summernats.  just thought people would like to know the power figures.

congrats to whoever that was, assumably they'd be from here
Project Siltara has been chipped, nismofied and getting exhausted

Offline Jecks

  • antrx.com pit crew
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 2983
  • Karma: +72/-10
  • Gender: Male
    • antrx.com
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #38 on: Mar 28, 2006, 02:49PM »
which issue of hot4s was it from??
i want a copy...
I'm sick of my knob going all floppy and loose in my hand  :P 
I've been on probation for 21 years, can't make a decision without consulting the wife first  ::)

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #39 on: Mar 28, 2006, 04:50PM »
Yeah, me too.

hmm.. i thought i was going to be the NA beast :P.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline STU84W

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
  • Karma: +12/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Sifu
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #40 on: Mar 28, 2006, 05:33PM »
its the one coming out this month... i love subscription.  best birthday present ever.

i know its someone from here, cos i'm damn sure i've seen the engine bay setup before.  red rocker cover, braided hoses, custom throttle body..

haha, yeah chris, i wanted to be an NA king as well.  oh dear
Project Siltara has been chipped, nismofied and getting exhausted

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #41 on: Mar 28, 2006, 05:40PM »
hey that sounds like my engine










 :P
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #42 on: Mar 28, 2006, 05:54PM »
Hmmm better get my ass into gear with my ITB setup, yes i know, i'm lazy.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #43 on: Mar 30, 2006, 11:09AM »
anyone able to put up a scan of that article? (Siltara?)

Offline STU84W

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
  • Karma: +12/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Sifu
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #44 on: Mar 30, 2006, 12:34PM »
not really an article, just a quick write up.  i'll get one up tonite when i get home
Project Siltara has been chipped, nismofied and getting exhausted

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #45 on: Mar 30, 2006, 01:27PM »
thanks :)

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2006, 12:54PM »
ok digging this up from the semi dead.

spaced out the itb's to line up with the intake ports on the KA head.
In the process of finalizing the new intake flange and connection flanges to bolt these ITB's up to the new intake manifold.
Buying -10 AN fuel rail to work with my 1000cc injectors that are going in with the new intake manifold.
from the same company i am buying this plenum extrusion to form the plenum for the ITB's:



and inside the plenum to connect the itb's to the actual plenum via silicon couplers will be 4 of these:



they are welded to the plenum. the plenum will have a 3" inlet to accomodate for my 3" cold side IC piping.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2006, 01:07PM »
Whilst i don't expect enormous top end gains with these itb's, i am expecting to see a large improvement in midrange torque which will be the most noticeable gain and the aim of installing these.

I will have gtech numbers for both before and after too.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2006, 04:32PM »
hurry up  :P
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline pumbaplus

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2006, 07:29PM »
hi dude, it takes big cohones to attempt this modd , so well done...
 
where abouts did you get the "trumpets" and plenum shape........ $$$$$

what are you doing to your box to survive this + turbo....??
\
why not go the twincam head?? / motor....? sounds like you want to go all out.
or is the 12valve head good for the numbers...

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2006, 09:17PM »
adam likes the single cam :P. I dont think there is that much difference anyway...

and yes he has guts to do this..
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2006, 09:29PM »
hi dude, it takes big cohones to attempt this modd , so well done...
 
where abouts did you get the "trumpets" and plenum shape........ $$$$$

what are you doing to your box to survive this + turbo....??
\
why not go the twincam head?? / motor....? sounds like you want to go all out.
or is the 12valve head good for the numbers...


velocity stacks will be from www.velocity-of-sound.com, plenum extrusion from www.rossmachineracing.com.
gearbox, i have a spare that will be rebuilt and all of its internals cryo treated for increased strength and wear resistance. it may get straight cut gears for 1st to 4th.

i was going to go dohc, but then it would have cost me about $2k including the purchase price of the head to build the head to how i want it.
i have 2 sohc heads, and i firmly believe that they are capable of pulling big numbers. some drag racers in puerto rico use the sohc as they are lighter than the dohc, rebello racing uses sohc KA's in their off road racing trucks which are pulling around the 300hp at the flywheel in NA form.
I did my own solid lifters for the sohc head (as well as noss's). When the bottom end is built, the engine will be good for around 7-7500rpm, if not 8000.

and yes he has guts to do this..

it's too late now mate, i've already got 50% of the parts and my forged pistons were ordered yesterday. ;D

Offline bungs

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2401
  • Karma: +53/-25
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2006, 10:49PM »
adam likes the single cam :P. I dont think there is that much difference anyway...

single slammer ftw

hrmm wish i had forged goodness, 18psi daily would be nice :(

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2006, 12:55AM »
yeah im going single slammer too.. with my spare engine im getting i have some plans.  :P
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2006, 08:36AM »
single slammer ftw

hrmm wish i had forged goodness, 18psi daily would be nice :(

i still need to get some crower rods though, that i won't be able to get out of relatviely cheaper :(

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2006, 08:50AM »
The plenum material, fuel rail, and connection flanges have all been ordered, now i just have to wait. I'll be ordering the velocity stacks after i have had the connection flanges lasercut.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2006, 08:21PM »
what idea do you have planned for the plenum ?, Is it the same as in the picture ? How do you know it suits everything right ?

also, any chance of pictures ?
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2006, 09:55PM »
Cos i'll make it suit. ;D

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #58 on: Jun 6, 2006, 04:54PM »
Small update:

Fuel rail and plenum extrusion arrived from the US last week, still waiting on the flanges i need laser cut; because the flanges haven't been cut, i don't want to order the velocity stacks in case i get the wrong size (looking at about $200 for 4 stacks).


Offline MAG86

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • Karma: +10/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • L24ET on the way.....
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #59 on: Jun 16, 2006, 01:37PM »
where's this hot4s write-up thing anyway.... im sure im not the only one who is interested
[0O\======/O0]

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #60 on: Jun 16, 2006, 05:08PM »
there is no such thing mag. it's just a picture.

why is it always when metal needs to be cut or bent it takes friggin forever... noss would laugh if he reads this  :D
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #61 on: Jun 26, 2006, 04:44PM »
why is it always when metal needs to be cut or bent it takes friggin forever... noss would laugh if he reads this  :D

it just does. on the upside, i actually didn't pay a cent for the flanges i had laser cut!

it's taking a bit of time to get the model done for the intake flange that bolts to the head, i want it as spot on as possible, and due to it's length, printing a 1:1 paper version to match to the head ports is proving time consuming...it has to be done on 2 pages.

I'm not in any rush to get this finished (gee can't you tell?!) as i'm not turboing the block that's in the car atm, i just don't think it'll hold up.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #62 on: Jun 28, 2006, 11:23PM »
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #63 on: Jun 29, 2006, 08:50AM »
except with a plenum around them.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #64 on: Jul 14, 2006, 12:04PM »
Velocity stacks are on their way, got em cheap too, $122 incl delivery for the 4 VS50-60's i ordered.

Offline thaivietg714

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't Fake it, Just Take it
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #65 on: Jul 19, 2006, 05:32PM »
Quote from: pandas14
Just recently got this project running, so I might as well do a writeup.

Here goes.

Intake mani and TB's

First, get some 01' or higher Suzuki GSXR 1000 or 750 Throttle Bodies.

Then get an extra intake mani. 

Cut the runners off approximately 6" from the head flange. 

Go to Home Depot and get some rubber plumbing couplers.  They're about $5 a piece with clamps.

Clamp the Mani and TB's together to yield this...









And with the couplers trimmed down, and the velocity stacks on...





Now make 2 brackets that brace the TB's to the mani, for extra strength.

I used 3/4" by 3/16" steel.  You can find this at Home Depot.  Bolted one end to the TB's and the other slips under the mounting point for the PCV rail.  Make one per side.  Should look something like this...



Now make a bracket for the throttle cable to slip into.  I used 1 1/2" angle iron.  This can also be found at Home Depot.  Make it to bolt onto the mounting surface that the EGR used to sit on. 





Get a SOHC throttle cable.  The DOHC one is wayyyy too long.  The SOHC cable is too long too, but better than the DOHC one.  The end of the Nissan throttle cable that slips onto the throttle wheel fits in the Suzuki throttle wheel perfectly.

get two air boxes from a 01' and up GSXR 750.  These have the shortest velocity stacks.  Each airbox has two short stacks, and two long ones.  Once you have 2 boxes, you will have two full sets of velocity stacks to help you achieve the best powerband down the road.



That's it for the manifold part of things.

Now the fuel management.

I chose to use a MegaSquirt (MS) because of price, and because, well, I love DIY stuff as you can probably see.  haha

Get your board and bags of components all lined up like so...



Build the stimulator first.  This will help you learn how to make proper solder joints befor you start soldering the actual MS together.  The stimulator hooks up to Megasquirt and stimulates the MS such that it thinks it is running an engine.  What this does is allow you to make sure all of your MS is built and running correctly before trying to start the car with it.  It also allows you to download new codes to the CPU chip as you see fit, without having to have the MS in the car.  Very trick.



Follow the MegaManual at www.megasquirt.info and you will end up with this...



Now build the pigtail for the wiring harness...



and here's a better pic of how many wires there are.  This is the entire engine harness.  Stock one gets removed completely.



that's basically it for the MS.

Now for the ignition setup.

I chose to run a distributorless system off of early 90's Ford Escorts.  This system uses a trigger wheel that is mounted to the crank pulley to fire the ignition instead of a gear driven distributor.  This has many advantages, the first of which being that it is more accurate than the stock distributor.  It also gives full control of the ignition timing.

from left to righ in the pic below, we have the EDIS module, the VR sensor (reads the trigger wheel on the crank pulley) and the Coil.



Here is a picture of the spark plug wires modified to fit down the spark plug holes in the valve cover.  the boot that connects to the plugs has about a 30 degree bend in them so I bent them back straight, and trimmed the boots until they slid down into the holes in the valve cover.



Next, you have to get a trigger wheel made.  I have a friend who is a CNC machinist, so he made one for me, as well as prepping the crank pulley for the wheel.



And the wheel fit onto the pulley looks like so...





Now make a bracket to mount the VR sensor onto.  I put mine where the A/C compressor used to be.  just some more of the angle Iron used before, long enough to mount the sensor on, facing the crank pulley.

Next, make a block off plate for the hole that the distributor used to occupy.  I made mine big enough to mount the new coil to, as that is as far as the plug wires would reach.  Just simple 1/8" thick steel.  when finished it looks like this bolted to the engine, with the new coil mounted on it.





On a side note, here is the stock KA24DE timing map I scaled down.  I have used it and it works great. 



Putting it all together.

Now pull off your stock intake mani, and take out your engine harness.  You will no longer need either of these.  bolt the new mani onto the engine, it should look something like this...











You can also see in those pics the wiring harness was finished.  It's simply following the diagram, running each wire to each sensor.

the only things that were not on the diagrams were the tach signal, water temp gauge and the switched ignition power supply.  the Tach signal was cake, run a wire from the Clean Tach Out pin on the EDIS module to the Tach input on the back of the gauge cluster.  That's it.  Speedo will still work.  Run a wire from the second temp sensor in the intake mani to the coolant temp input on the back of the gauge cluster.  that's all for that.  And the B/R wire coming from the igntion switch on the steering column needs to be tapped into to get switched power to MS, and the ignition components.

 

However, the wiring diagram for the ignition is slightly off.  the polarity of the VR sensor wires is opposite than in the diagrams, so wire that up accordingly. 

I used the stock injectors for now, but I have some SR injectors lying around waiting to go in.  Stock injectors will be enough for now. 

for the brake booster, I used the stock PCV rail, and ran one line from its output to the brake booster.  Has worked great.  I also Tee'd a 1/4" vacuum line out of this line, on it's way to the booster, for the fuel pressure regulator.  Before doing any of this, I measured the vacuum in this line, and in the rest of the intake mani under all braking conditions, and the booster did not affect the vacuum in the engine.  This being so, it is safe, and fine to run the vacuum for the FPR from the brake booster vacuum line.

the TB's come from the factory with a vacuum line from each port Tee'd into one.  this is used for the map sensor.  Simply run a line from this to MS.  the MAP sensor is inside the MS box.

Then swap out the throttle cables, and hook the SOHC one up.

Finally, plug the EGR hole in your header.

If I recall correctly, this is about it for what I did on this whole project to get it running.  for the specifics of the MS building and whatnot, and the ignition specifics and diagrams, visit www.msefi.com and www.megasquirt.info.

I specifically did not go into extensive detail in these areas because it is covered very well at those two sites.

So finally start it up and get it idling correctly.  Do this by adjusting the screw that adjusts how far open the throttle plates are at "closed" so it has an idle speed you like, and adjusting the fuel amount in the MS.  You can then get your own wideband to tune it, or take it to someone.  Wichever's clever. 

After tuning it, GO DRIVE IT!  Don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back too!

Please forgive me if I have forgotten anything, it is a very long project, there is so much to do. I may have left a few small details out, but this is the major stuff.

Driving impressions
I don't have it tuned very well yet, but I can tell you that throttle response is immediate.  The engine also revs up MUCH quicker.  It does not feel like the lunky old KA.  It's a whole new engine.  This definately made it come alive.  It is, of course MUCh louder also.  It no longer sounds like a KA.  Sounds way more pissed, like an engine with 2x the displacement.No dyno slips yet, but once I get one, I will be certain to post it up, as well as a video/soundclip.


this is from 240sx forums, its a write up, it was inspired from a ka24e wiht itb's

sorry if its too long

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #66 on: Jul 19, 2006, 06:00PM »
Yeah, seen that before, he now has the itb's enclosed in a plenum similar to the extrusion i have and is turbo.

velocity-of-sound.com for teh win. ;D






edit: oops, didn't link correctly to the first pic.

« Last Edit: Jul 20, 2006, 08:34AM by SSS »

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #67 on: Jul 19, 2006, 07:16PM »
nice nice, adam please get this done asap :D

and video's pics, sound + tech article please ! no more mr secret from you  ;D
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline thaivietg714

  • antrx.com junior member
  • **
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't Fake it, Just Take it
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #68 on: Jul 20, 2006, 04:47AM »
this is gonna be a beast!

if he does this, his u12 will be the most respected to me...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #69 on: Jul 20, 2006, 08:47AM »
The taper from the top of the velocity stacks to the opening of the ITB's matches the taper from the opening of the ITB's to the outlet, which means these should flow very well and provide a huge jump in intake charge velocity = more torque = more power. ;D

best of all there is little to no porting work necessary to match the velocity stacks to the opening of the ITB's to provide less turbulence and more laminar flow.

chris, this thread is about as much of a tech article as you're going to get unfortunately, it's not something i can write up to give step by step instructions on how to do; i just don't have the time.

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #70 on: Jul 20, 2006, 02:23PM »
Why is it that that write up makes it seem so much easier at first that i know it will be if I ever tried to do it?

Real eye opener though... maybe not as hard as originally thought  :-\  Specially for a bit of a hack job like that.  Adam, your stuff looks so much more pro than that!  all smoothe and sexy.
Glad to see its coming together.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #71 on: Jul 20, 2006, 02:30PM »
I'm not a fan of the DIY setups that use rubber couplers to secure & seal the itb's to a cutdown stock manifold...just leaves too much chance of something leaking or fucking up on a MAF sensed ecu.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #72 on: Oct 17, 2006, 10:51PM »
The itb's at the moment are being respaced as i'm not happy with the alignment of them to the intake ports, i'm being very pedantic about this as near enough is not good enough in this case. the idea here is to achieve as straight a flow path as possible, hence less turbulence in the ports which kills VE. Several things need to be altered in this case as the groups of 2 tb's are being brought closer to each other, they are 4mm too far apart currently.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #73 on: Oct 17, 2006, 11:03PM »
which two itb's are being brought together ?
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline eurisko

  • Frankenmotor Builder
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Karma: +66/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Oldschool and Newstyle
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #74 on: Oct 17, 2006, 11:34PM »
4mm is a pretty big error. Especially for ITB where laminar flow is whats being aimed for. Bad luck with the spacing.

The Nissubishda will live....

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #75 on: Oct 18, 2006, 09:25AM »
the centre spacing bringing together the 2 groups of tb's is easily changed, but the 4mm out spacing of the 2 tb's was how they came when i bought them.

it probably would have been fine had i been using the nismo cast manifold originally designed for side draught webers, but even that would have been a comprimise as the runners even on that manifold aren't straight.

chris, what i'm doing doesn't apply to you, as my manifold is a one off for my engine, no stock intake components are being re-used. everything is custom.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #76 on: Oct 18, 2006, 03:51PM »
ok adam...

i'll leave you to it...
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #77 on: Jan 18, 2007, 09:53AM »
Update:

My (severely) cut down stock intake manifold is here at work with me about to get milled flat, i decided against making a new intake flange this time as the stock cut down manifold will work fine with little comprimise.

Once it's milled flat the ports will be thoroughly re-shaped to get flow as straight as possible into the head, then my hand-formed tapered round-oval adaptors will be welded on, along with the first set of flanges.
Everything will then be ported and cleaned up again.

One other little design change i am making will be replacing the coolant return pipes with AN fittings to allow FAR easier coolant line hook up / removal for anytime i may need to remove / install the manifold again.
The single hardest job with removing / installing the intake manifold is those lines, getting the hoses on so they don't leak is the world's biggest PITA. :(

This new intake manifold is one of the major items that has to go in before i can even think about bolting up a turbo, my 1000cc/min injectors need larger bosses than the stock injectors to allow them to fit. (they are the 14mm double o-ringed type)

I decided this ITB setup is going to be the trial setup, depending on how this manifold performs will determine how much time and effort i will put in down the track on a complete one-off custom ITB manifold.


Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #78 on: Jan 18, 2007, 05:30PM »
Quote
then my hand-formed tapered round-oval adaptors will be welded on, along with the first set of flanges.

so the runners from the itb's to the head are round correct ? (im assuming they are, you have the same itbs as me), so with this "adapter" does it taper down the circle to a round-oval ?

I just quite don't understand what you meant by adapters, i think im thinking right though.

Why don't you get a piece of aluminium watercut? I rang up a place and they quoted me $30 without drawing up the flange on cad, but i already have that anyway...A flat bar of aluminium shouldn't be too $$$ anyway hehe.

With the runners, im getting them crushed at a metalworker (I will ask for sand to be put in so i get a nice smooth crush/bend), So it will be a circle and then crushed to the oval (but im assuming i WILL need an adapter of some sort.) I wish our engines never had oval ports, sigh.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #79 on: Jan 18, 2007, 06:03PM »
so the runners from the itb's to the head are round correct ? (im assuming they are, you have the same itbs as me), so with this "adapter" does it taper down the circle to a round-oval ?

I just quite don't understand what you meant by adapters, i think im thinking right though.

Why don't you get a piece of aluminium watercut? I rang up a place and they quoted me $30 without drawing up the flange on cad, but i already have that anyway...A flat bar of aluminium shouldn't be too $$$ anyway hehe.

With the runners, im getting them crushed at a metalworker (I will ask for sand to be put in so i get a nice smooth crush/bend), So it will be a circle and then crushed to the oval (but im assuming i WILL need an adapter of some sort.) I wish our engines never had oval ports, sigh.

yes, the runner adaptor changes the shape exiting the ITB's to oval shape to match the intake manifold ports.
It's basically just a 100mm section of 2mm thick tube crushed at one end, like you said. and good thinking with the sand packing idea...i'll have to try that. I'm doing mine at home. I was going to carve up a wooden form to make sure they are all the same, but it'll take too long.

I could have got the flange lasercut at work, but to tell you the truth i really couldn't be fucked! it would have been more fabrication that is unnecessary in my case.

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #80 on: Jun 8, 2007, 09:49AM »
Thought i would provide an update since the performance section is clearly dead.

I've modelled most of the setup in solidworks to determine runner lengths and figure out what clearances i need to avoid interference with the clutch master cylinder.



As you can see, as much as i wanted to have straight intake runners, it won't be possible with the clutch MC where it is.

And please don't ask for the actual model files, unless you are prepared to pay for them.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #81 on: Jun 8, 2007, 10:21AM »
excitement of the much much   ;D
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #82 on: Jul 23, 2007, 12:04AM »
Well I was just bored and noticed a short vid on a ITB'd KA... clearly on a 240sx  Sounded pretty crazy!  Just a pitty we dont get to see it actually drive  :(

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #83 on: Jul 23, 2007, 12:21PM »
haha

so delayed  :D
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #84 on: Jul 23, 2007, 12:48PM »
oh i thought i put a link in there... clearly not  :-[  now i feel stupid.. i'll find it and put it up tonight... or just search youtube... "KA ITB"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfQ4eA626kM
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2007, 12:03PM by Colby »

Offline Pingu

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Blackbird
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #85 on: Aug 2, 2007, 02:56PM »
Hey, just thought i'd mention a generic thing people should look at when doing an ITB project on a nissan.
The older 3 litre maxima's had a throttle body which consisted of two seperate (40 odd mm ID) throttle bodies inside a rectangle. They decided to do this so they could run the intake manifold over the top of the engine close to the bonnet.

* Two of these together, with the shaft connected makes a quick four.
*It also has the throttle body sensor mounts.
* Flanged faces

The whole thing has a flanged face on either side, so you could adapt it to other parts ( flanges to accomodate existing flanges on runners and the new flanges on the throttle bodies / or individual flanged pieces of tube to connect to other runners or what not with a hose joiner) without too much trouble. I'll take some pictures of a couple if i get a chance and post here.

Andy


Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #86 on: Aug 2, 2007, 03:07PM »
40mm is a tad small
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #87 on: Aug 2, 2007, 04:35PM »
Quote
The older 3 litre maxima's had a throttle body which consisted of two seperate (40 odd mm ID) throttle bodies inside a rectangle.
these would be adaptable on a standard KA plenum?  twin 40mm > single 54mm, but what is the diameter of the smallest section of it?
If they can be used in this fasion they would still make a reasonable upgrade.

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #88 on: Aug 2, 2007, 10:51PM »
No chance they'd fit on the standard KA24 plenum,

A custom plenum would be better anyway, the stock intake on the KA24 is absolute ratshit.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #89 on: Aug 2, 2007, 11:16PM »
custom shit takes too much time and effort at the moment... we want new cheap bolt on mods!

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #90 on: Aug 3, 2007, 09:26AM »
meh,

problem these days, people want performance for cheap... won't happen unless it's mass produced shit.

you're talking ka24e here, a motor that is  bar far no where near popular or valued in many peoples eyes, everything needs to be done pure custom, which for the extra effort at the end of the day, it's far better.
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #91 on: Aug 3, 2007, 10:32AM »
correct.

when i (eventually) get this ITB manifold done, i would be asking no less than $1500 to build another one, purely because of the development and labour that goes into it.

On the topic of twin tb's etc, i have a set of twin 52mm (IIRC) Cadillac Catera tb's that i managed to score through work, that i planned on adapting to a modified stock KA plenum, by way of a new flange section to allow the tb's to bolt up and increase the overall volume of the plenum by another 0.5L.

I can still do this and get it working flawlessly on the KA if someone wanted to buy it, but again, i'd be asking no less than $600 for the complete bolton assembly.

Offline Pingu

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Blackbird
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #92 on: Aug 3, 2007, 01:23PM »
these would be adaptable on a standard KA plenum?  twin 40mm > single 54mm, but what is the diameter of the smallest section of it?
If they can be used in this fasion they would still make a reasonable upgrade.

They are more like 43-45 ID at the minimum point.
I'm suggesting using two of these units 2 twin throttle rectangles, removing one of the unit's TPS, and one of the units throttle wheel, attaching these together is a piece of cake, you can use the joiner that sits between the ca18det butterfly twin sections, they are attached in a pair in the same way i'm proposing. You'd kill many birds with one stone with this cheap alternative. Clearly not quite as insane as this project but could be the go for someone adapting to a plenum and the usual bits still on the intake.

Once you see the picture you'll see how it can be adapted. In the case of the CA18DET it wouldn't be long at all. I sold my throttles despite wanting that setup due to the benefits not really being worth the effort at this point on a turbocharged vehicle. I'd really love to do a NA car some day like this. Maybe even a KA24DE you NEVER see those here in NZ!

Offline Pingu

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Blackbird
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #93 on: Aug 3, 2007, 01:26PM »
Thought i would provide an update since the performance section is clearly dead.

I've modelled most of the setup in solidworks to determine runner lengths and figure out what clearances i need to avoid interference with the clutch master cylinder.



As you can see, as much as i wanted to have straight intake runners, it won't be possible with the clutch MC where it is.

And please don't ask for the actual model files, unless you are prepared to pay for them.

So you are going to build a new runner section and flange to the motor itself?

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #94 on: Aug 3, 2007, 01:32PM »
I was, but i decided on cutting down a stock manifold for this first iteration & having the mounting flanges welded to that.

Offline Pingu

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Blackbird
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #95 on: Aug 3, 2007, 07:31PM »
I was, but i decided on cutting down a stock manifold for this first iteration & having the mounting flanges welded to that.

Definitley a good idea to prototype it that way than produce more than one... eek... custom intake flange and runners...

Offline Pure_Sincerity

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • noss is my father
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #96 on: Oct 3, 2012, 01:16AM »
THREAD DIGGING :D

I didn't know you were serious about having a set of these sitting around for years apon years, damn.

Good info, will help me abit :)
U12 TRX
KA25DE
HIGH COMP
MEGASQUIRT
COILOVERS
INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #97 on: Oct 3, 2012, 09:40AM »
Yep, got everything to do them.

And by everything...
- cut down and milled flat standard intake manifold flange (as a base)
- 45mm GSXR tb's
- velocity stacks
- plenum extrusion
- laser cut flanges

I didn't have the ability to weld aluminium as i do now (still not sure about my whether my skill to weld aluminium exists or not...), I should probably really get it done.

My main concern still is that the number 1 runner will have too many sharp turns to avoid the brake mc / booster, therefore impeding flow.

I can a get around this by going to a floor mounted pedal box, but that is a little ways off yet.

My main focus is getting the turbo stuff on currently (yes...instant gratification).

I still want to do these moreso for response and torque production when off boost, for a NA application you need the compression and decent cams (none of this 2 exhaust cams shit...proper, long duration cams) which would cost me more money than i would like to spend.

Offline Pure_Sincerity

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • noss is my father
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #98 on: Oct 5, 2012, 09:49AM »
Mine arrived in the post, so far I've just removed the secondary butterflies and removed the fuel rails and plugged the holes. I can't believe you paid $200 without sensors etc. I paid $105 for everything associated with it. So I can sell of the shit I don't need to some bike [language filter smackdown].

My stock manifold will be cut down and welded to make round ports the same as evl's thread. Using stock injector location with a set of 370cc injectors.

My k&n filters don't fit as unordered wrong ones so I'm in the  market of purchasing some v- stacks unless you want to get paid to machine me some :p
U12 TRX
KA25DE
HIGH COMP
MEGASQUIRT
COILOVERS
INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES

Offline Pure_Sincerity

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +6/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • noss is my father
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #99 on: Nov 1, 2012, 03:40PM »
What have you done or what can we do about the trotter position sensor Adam ? I have the stock on on the gsx manifold but no plug so I can't re wire.
U12 TRX
KA25DE
HIGH COMP
MEGASQUIRT
COILOVERS
INDIVIDUAL THROTTLE BODIES

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8268
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: ITB'd KA24E
« Reply #100 on: Nov 1, 2012, 09:06PM »
take a pic of the plug on the tps and post it up.