Author Topic: whats involved in upgrading an afm?  (Read 5911 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pinsair

  • ka24e owner
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1046
  • Karma: +14/-4
  • Gender: Male
whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« on: Jun 14, 2004, 03:06PM »
just wondering what needs to be done in order to upgrade an afm. the ca20 has a pretty shitty, restrictive afm and i wouldnt mind upgraded to a z32 afm or something.  will i be able to run a diff afm off my stock ecu? what else is involved?

cheers

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 14, 2004, 03:49PM »
It can be wired up directly on the KA, but you'll end up running lean unless it is compensated for via electronic means. I'm 99% sure noss can re-cal the KA24E ecu for one of these MAFs. I'd assume the wiring for the CA20 could be similar.
It is small yes, but not worth changing out if you have a stock engine. These MAF's are typically $300-500, and you might only pickup 1 or 2kw at peak power. Of course there is no concrete evidence to prove this, but, as an example KA24ET/DET owners in the USA upgrade to the Z32 MAF as the stock KA MAF hits its max airflow ceiling of 4.99V at around 5psi. That is the only reason that they upgrade.

I might possibly do this when my engine is turbo.

iren

  • Guest
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 14, 2004, 03:57PM »
what does the CA20 afm looks like? does it has a flapper door?

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 14, 2004, 04:38PM »
nope, it's hot wire. It is a plastic bodied MAF if i'm correct and incorporates the air intake temp sensor.

iren

  • Guest
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 14, 2004, 05:00PM »
i see..then it's probably the japanese ones that got the flapper door..(so many engine bay pics...)

you guys ever thought of using a map sensor instead? of course, coupled to a VPC of some sort..

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 14, 2004, 05:09PM »
Considered it, but it's cheaper with the piggyback system i am running to upgrade and re-cal for a larger MAF. Plus as i said, noss should be able to re-cal the KA ECU for such a MAF.
A MAP sensed system would be ideal to remove intake restriction...

Offline fraz

  • bandit!
  • antrx cruise monkey
  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +44/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 14, 2004, 08:35PM »
I was at the wreckers (again :) ) and i saw a few interesting things.
There was an aussie ca20e and it had a hot wire type afm with a 4 pin plug and no air temp sensor in the airbox
There was a nz/jap ca20e and it had the flap type afm and no temp sensor
there was a jap ca18de and it had a hot wire afm with 4 pin plug
There was a ka24e with a hotwire afm and a temp sensor in the airbox, BUT it only had 3 pin plug on the afm

I did a measure up and the ca18de and ca20e hotwire afm are the same but the ka24e is about 5mm larger diameter which is a significant increase.
I got the black electronicky box off the top and tried to fit it to the ka24e afm but it is a slightly different shape.
I have been looking at the ca18de wiring diagram and ecu and i have discovered that yu can also run a 3 wire afm on the same computer if you dont run a catalyic convertor.
I believe you could easily run a ka24e afm on a ca20e but you would need to get bigger piping and possibly get noss to remap your ecu.


Also, if this pic works, its a ka24e throttle body i grabbed, you can see it dosent taper down like a ca18de one and is a bolt on and runs the same tps sensor.
I havent seen a aussie throttle body for a ca20e but in nz they have a twin butterfly thing that has a small one and a larger one which are pretty restrictive. From a quick look it looks like it would bolt on.
http://www.geocities.com/fraz_rips/ka24eafm.htm
« Last Edit: Jun 14, 2004, 08:43PM by fraz »
you can get out of a ukrainian prison for 2 packs of marlbro and a bottle of vodka....

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 14, 2004, 10:01PM »
unfortunately i cant redo the ca20e ecu's yet. hopefully one day, but we'll see.

just so you know, i can do ka24e, ca18de(t), sr20de(t), rb20de(t), rb26dett, vg30de(t) and vq30de
« Last Edit: Jun 14, 2004, 10:08PM by noss »

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #8 on: Aug 29, 2008, 10:14AM »
Know this is a bit of a thread dig, but seemed like a suitable heading to ask it under. Anyways...

Had a big AFM sitting around for ages, and dying to use it on the KA24DE.  No problems in wiring it up, however since its a big 90mm mother its going to dramatically change the flow.  This may be a bit of a noob question.

Can I run this on the stock DE computer and fuel maps, just adjust the fuel pressure regulator to get a bit more fuel in there to compensate the low read for the afm.  What will be the outcome if this is tried?

Or will I have to get a jaycar kit to compensate? or am I best off finding a daughter board and trying to find someone that does a chip.  Dont want to spend much money at the moment hence the first idea.

(noss, what ever happened to that mission to get U13 chips?)

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #9 on: Aug 29, 2008, 12:27PM »
i'd put my money on it not working that great.. there is only so much you can compensate for with the adjustable fpr..

if you are running the E ecu with adam's chip in it, then you could hit adam up to change the data to suit the new air flow meter, its by far the easiest way to make it work.

the other option would be to get bigger injectors to compensate for the larger airflow meter, as dodgy as this sounds, it works if you get the right size injectors.

if you have a 90mm AFM then i'm guessing its a Q45 one which is rated at around 500ps, stocker AFM is rated at around 190-210ps.

so what you do basically if you want to use the injector method is

old afm / new afm = ?
210 / 500 = 0.42

current injector / 0.42 (from above) = new injector
260 / 0.42 = ~620cc


probably not the best solution in this situation. if you had an rb25 AFM it works out better.. also i just took a guess on the size of the stock injectors.. if i got it wrong, just redo the equation so it works out.

um u13 chip mission.. everything was sidelined to get my own project finished.. i was tuning a guy's car one day and he asked me what i was doing to mine, told him the story and he said 'why the hell are you out here tuning other people's cars and putting yours on the backburner?'

if you can source a daughterboard, i can modify a u13 chip to suit your new afm no problems at all.. provided that its a nissan afm..

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline chr1S

  • r&d team
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6995
  • Karma: +117/-116
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #10 on: Aug 29, 2008, 09:37PM »
i wouldn't increase fuel pressure to get a direct response in a richer ratio, it'll just put your injectors under stress and not even vaporise the fuel properly, let alone not really add in more fuel

you can do noss' method by upgrading injectors, but it's easier if you get adam to just redo you a chip with a different maf vq map
Don't let the opinions of the average man sway you. Dream, and he thinks you're crazy. Succeed, and he thinks you're lucky. Acquire wealth, and he thinks you're greedy. Pay no attention. He simply doesn't understand.

Quote
to be fair, it wouldn't be ANTRX if we stayed on topic.

and if someone wasn't cranky at Chr1s for something he said...

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #11 on: Aug 30, 2008, 11:53PM »
not advisable col.

plain and simple, it'll run like shit.

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #12 on: Aug 31, 2008, 08:43PM »
not advisable col.

plain and simple, it'll run like shit.

yeah I thought I'd ask, figured it would be putting added stress on injectors, but not sure how hard they would need to run anyways.  It just sux running the u13 ECU because they havnt been chipped yet.  And the modified U12 loom hasn't worked for me.

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #13 on: Aug 31, 2008, 08:50PM »
Col im fairly sure you can get a nistune board to support the u13 ecu. Realtime tuning via consult, will make you life heaps easier.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #14 on: Sep 1, 2008, 09:28AM »
Col im fairly sure you can get a nistune board to support the u13 ecu. Realtime tuning via consult, will make you life heaps easier.

They should have them, AFAIK a big part of Matt's market are DE owners in the US.

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #15 on: Sep 1, 2008, 10:09AM »
Hmm $530 is not exactly the fix i had in mind  :-\
But if thats going to be the best way to do it.  ::)

Maybe we can try for a small group buy, and get the cost under $500.  (would have prefered this going into ryans pocket to get his project finished though).

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #16 on: Sep 1, 2008, 10:10AM »

if you can source a daughterboard, i can modify a u13 chip to suit your new afm no problems at all.. provided that its a nissan afm..


and also if you read what i posted earier.. i offered to do the chip to sort your afm if you can source a daughterboard.

(would have prefered this going into ryans pocket to get his project finished though).

lol thanks :D

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #17 on: Sep 1, 2008, 10:14AM »
Ok so i'll negotiate just the d/board from nistune and you'll beable to fix a chip for it yeah?
That way I wont need a consult cable at this stage saving $100.

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #18 on: Sep 1, 2008, 10:47AM »
yep thats right.

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #19 on: Sep 1, 2008, 10:55AM »
If you get the daughter board from nistune you will need the consult as thats how nistune communicates with the ecu. No point spending the money on real time tuning if your just going to pull chips in and out.

If you want to do it that way your better off sourcing the daughter board from somewhere else. See what plms have on offer. Even shoot pete an email, they might be able to help you out for much cheaper than a nistune board.
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #20 on: Sep 1, 2008, 10:57AM »
http://www.plmsdevelopments.com/daughterboards.shtml

They mention they may work with the KA24DE ecu.

Email them and find out. Then your looking at a $100 fix
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #21 on: Sep 3, 2008, 05:58PM »
Does anyone have the gear to do the real time tuning?  (consult cable, Nistune program)
Thinking I might beable to get the real time board ($220) then just get someone to assist in the initial tune.  Will save dicking around with chips each time I make an upgrade (once a year), less risk of damage that way too.

Offline Kranzy

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Karma: +66/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • U12 - SR20DET
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #22 on: Sep 3, 2008, 06:22PM »
I have the nistune software and consult cable in my u12 col. If you want im sure we can sort something out...
Quote from: noss
learnt something new just then, dont eat baked bean sandwhiches while changing the paper in the copier


"Noss is GOD"

Offline SSS

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Karma: +5020/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #23 on: Sep 4, 2008, 04:29PM »
Does anyone have the gear to do the real time tuning?  (consult cable, Nistune program)
Thinking I might beable to get the real time board ($220) then just get someone to assist in the initial tune.  Will save dicking around with chips each time I make an upgrade (once a year), less risk of damage that way too.

I do...but you'll have to come to my side of the bay.

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: whats involved in upgrading an afm?
« Reply #24 on: Sep 4, 2008, 06:33PM »
Well thats fair enough.

Unless someone wants to rent a consult and program to me.   ;D  worth a try.
Think that sounds like the best option rather than worrying about pulling the ECU out every time a tune is in order.