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U12 Bluebird, Pintara & Stanza => performance and handling => Topic started by: noss on Dec 17, 2005, 09:05PM

Title: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on Dec 17, 2005, 09:05PM
well guys, this afternoon i upgraded my brakes from a pair of u12 slotted dba rotors to a set of u13 280mm rotors with attesa twin piston calipers to match. here is a brief write up on what went on..

just to clarify for everyone's information, contrary to what has been posted by some members recently, these brakes are in fact a direct bolt on upgrade!


first up you want to loosen your wheel nuts, and jack up the car.

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7013/dscf02012qx.th.jpg) (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02012qx.jpg)


then you want to remove your wheel.. simple stuff so far.

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/285/dscf02022gi.th.jpg) (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02022gi.jpg)


from there, you need to remove your standard caliper. there are two 19mm bolts holding it to the strut assembly. once these are removed, the brake rotor will come straight off.

(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/2076/dscf02038vg.th.jpg) (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02038vg.jpg)
the stock rotor is sitting on the ground, the stock caliper is resting on the dust cover


i had to make some modifications with a hammer and an angle grinder so the standard dust covers didnt foul the disc. i advise you get a set of u13 dust covers to suit your new brakes.

(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9512/dscf02044fh.th.jpg) (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02044fh.jpg)


here you can see the 280mm u13 rotor being test fitted to the hub. yes, rusty rotors, its just a bit of surface rust, these have since been cleaned up and look brand new.

(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/157/dscf02053vn.th.jpg) (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02053vn.jpg)


here is the u13 caliper installed over the u13 rotor. use the same mounting points as the standard caliper used. ensure you tighten the bolts sufficiently (refer to your service manual for torque settings)

(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/8669/dscf02061lj.th.jpg) (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02061lj.jpg)


you will have to fit your brake line to the u13 caliper. you need a 12mm spanner to undo the bolts, they're the same fitting. attach the brake line to your u13 caliper. be prepared to have brake fluid spew out on you.

install pads as per the pad replacement tech article by tas. its the same procedure, just different part numbers.

check everything is tight. bleed the system as per tas' abovementioned article, re-fit your wheel, lower your car back onto the ground.

and there you have it, the finished product.

(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7485/dscf02075jz.th.jpg) (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf02075jz.jpg)


take your car for a spin. be gentle on it. test your new brakes and make sure everything is finctioning correctly. enjoy.



all up, this was a no hassle adventure into brake upgrading. took me and my dad about 4 hours to do. braking is a good improvement and i pull up much quicker, although i think its an unfair comparrison because i have gone from slotted dba's with metal pads to standard rotors with organic pads, in a few months when i upgrade the pads and rotors, the improvements should be quite good.

recommend it to anyone upgrading that wants a simple upgrade with no stuffing around with machining down discs.



big thanks to my dad for helping, and counterpunch for supplying the brakes.
Title: Re: nc: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jtas on Dec 17, 2005, 09:51PM
Is there a change in the wheel - caliper clearance.  Will standard u12size wheels fit over the new calipers?  :)
Title: Re: nc: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Craazy on Dec 17, 2005, 09:54PM
this is exactly what i thought would be the case...  ;D so this is very good, where did you get the calipers from??

and the discs, what diameter are they?? 260 or 280mm
Title: Re: nc: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on Dec 17, 2005, 10:09PM
yeh there is a bit of a difference, i think you'd need at least 15's to slip these brakes on. funnily enough, edge of the caliper to inside edge of the wheel there is more clearance.. the u12 calipers are kind of chunky and came close to the spokes of my buddy clubs, these there seems to be a bit more.

the diameter is 280 compared to the stock 258mm.. these discs i have are much thicker than stockos.. must be an attesa thing cause dba list them as being the same thickness.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: FalconGuy on Dec 18, 2005, 10:17AM
Hey Noss,

One thing...In the first post you are saying they are 13" rotors yet down yonder they're 280mm?

13" is ~325mm and 280 is ~11"



Cheers,
Brendan
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on Dec 18, 2005, 11:31AM
ah sorry, i was getting confused between these and adam's ones.. his are 12 or 13" - i'll fix that up.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Craazy on Dec 19, 2005, 04:48PM
good stuff nossta.....    looks to be a good mod if you can get the parts, i know how much of a pain they are to source....

Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: SSS on Dec 21, 2005, 09:03AM
ah sorry, i was getting confused between these and adam's ones.. his are 12 or 13" - i'll fix that up.

mine are actually 274mm in diameter, i chose not to grind down the inside of the caliper where radial interference would have occurred.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on Dec 21, 2005, 09:20AM
oh right! i thought yours were something like 290mm.. so we have the same size brakes now? give or take a few mm. nice.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: fraz on Jan 4, 2006, 08:34PM
I had to reduse the diamater of my discs from 280mm to 274 so the calipers fitted.
I think this was because i used r33 skyline brakes that have a mounting boss which is slightly further from the centre of the hub.
Caliper looks identical tho. Its a pretty good improvement over stock ay :)
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: mike1988 on Mar 3, 2006, 02:02AM
will the rear brakes work as well converting them from u12 drums to u13 disc's
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 16, 2006, 10:04AM
I too would like to know if upgrading the rear brakes using the u13 counterparts is possible.

If anyone has ever tried overhauling stock rear u12 callipers, then you know it is almost impossible to completely pull the calliper apart and put it back together.  I tried, failed.  My mechanic tried, he failed too.  He ended up just getting one from the wreckers and bolting it on un-serviced.  Everything worked for a while, but now the driver's side rear brake has just stopped working.  Sometimes it'll stay on, sometimes you can't get it on.  It's f*cked.  And I don't wanna put another set of unserviceable callipers on from the wreckers.  I'm just over it.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on Mar 16, 2006, 11:31AM
i'm pretty sure the u13 rears are the same brakes as the u12 rears.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 16, 2006, 02:12PM
Oh dear...

Any idea of an upgrade option?  I'm really sick of these.  I just got everything fixed with them a few weeks ago, and now I've had to pull the callipers off and try and do something again.

I want something that's easy to work on and overhaul.  I don't care if they perform better or not, but if they do that's a bonus.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Alister on Mar 16, 2006, 02:43PM
i'm pretty sure the u13 rears are the same brakes as the u12 rears.

I thought the U13 had discs on the rears?
I'll check that when I get home.

EDIT - Yep, 258mm discs on the rear.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 16, 2006, 02:46PM
So does the U12.  I think some have a combo of disc and drum.  But others (like mine) are just disc.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Alister on Mar 16, 2006, 02:50PM
So does the U12.  I think some have a combo of disc and drum.  But others (like mine) are just disc.

Ahh, maybe the TRX and Ti models have discs all round? *shrugs*
I'll doube check that rear disc diameter when I get home. The front discs on the AUS U13s are 280mm.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Kranzy on Mar 16, 2006, 02:57PM
I think that most models bar the executive maybe might not have discs?

I know one model came out with drums.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Budgie on Mar 16, 2006, 04:11PM
The Pintara Gli had drums out the back.

All of the corsairs had discs all round.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jono on Mar 16, 2006, 06:59PM
OK,

Executive and GLi Pintaras had drums on the rear, everything else including Corsairs had discs.

U13 rear brakes are slightly smaller in diameter than the U12s, but they're thicker. These size differences mean that you can't put a U13 caliper on a U12 disc and vice-versa.

U12 and U13 calipers are exactly the same except for the size of disc they're designed to fit over. This means that U13 calipers are just as hard to work on as U12 calipers.

You can pull the calipers right apart into their individual pieces, I've done it on a pair of U12 calipers, and I needed some replacement parts, namely the pistons, so I picked up some U13 calipers for a decent price and used those parts. But you CAN completely dismantle the calipers.

The only special tool I used to dismantle and reassemble them was a pair of circlip pliers with ground-down tips to fit in the small circlips inside the piston.

Quite frankly, if your mechanic couldn't rebuild your calipers I would be doubtful of his ability to work on your car.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Kranzy on Mar 16, 2006, 08:33PM
I knew that only the exectives had drums...im learning :P

I knew the corsairs had disc all around and only the base model pinny had drums.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: mike1988 on Mar 17, 2006, 04:14AM
ok that really didnt answer my question but since im goin from drums to disc it will work since i will have to get the whole rear brake caliper, rotor and everything else
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Kranzy on Mar 17, 2006, 08:42AM
OK,

Executive and GLi Pintaras had drums on the rear, everything else including Corsairs had discs.

U13 rear brakes are slightly smaller in diameter than the U12s, but they're thicker. These size differences mean that you can't put a U13 caliper on a U12 disc and vice-versa.

U12 and U13 calipers are exactly the same except for the size of disc they're designed to fit over. This means that U13 calipers are just as hard to work on as U12 calipers.

You can pull the calipers right apart into their individual pieces, I've done it on a pair of U12 calipers, and I needed some replacement parts, namely the pistons, so I picked up some U13 calipers for a decent price and used those parts. But you CAN completely dismantle the calipers.

The only special tool I used to dismantle and reassemble them was a pair of circlip pliers with ground-down tips to fit in the small circlips inside the piston.

Quite frankly, if your mechanic couldn't rebuild your calipers I would be doubtful of his ability to work on your car.

Read that post as it answer your question.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jecks on Mar 17, 2006, 08:55AM
sorry kranzy... i fail to see how that answer's the whole "is it possible to upgrade from drums to disc's if i have all the parts" question...

im pretty sure it IS possible, but dont ask me on which parts exactly are needed, i wouldnt know...
im not really clued up when it comes to brakes... YET ;D
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Kranzy on Mar 17, 2006, 08:59AM
Its pretty obvious though if he has all the parts needed from either the u12 or u13 and that most of the pintaras and all corsairs came with discs and there isnt a difference in the physical build of the car that it is possible.

Its given him the option to know that parts off both cars will fit also.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 17, 2006, 09:18AM
OK,

Executive and GLi Pintaras had drums on the rear, everything else including Corsairs had discs.

U13 rear brakes are slightly smaller in diameter than the U12s, but they're thicker. These size differences mean that you can't put a U13 caliper on a U12 disc and vice-versa.

U12 and U13 calipers are exactly the same except for the size of disc they're designed to fit over. This means that U13 calipers are just as hard to work on as U12 calipers.

You can pull the calipers right apart into their individual pieces, I've done it on a pair of U12 calipers, and I needed some replacement parts, namely the pistons, so I picked up some U13 calipers for a decent price and used those parts. But you CAN completely dismantle the calipers.

The only special tool I used to dismantle and reassemble them was a pair of circlip pliers with ground-down tips to fit in the small circlips inside the piston.

Quite frankly, if your mechanic couldn't rebuild your calipers I would be doubtful of his ability to work on your car.

Yes, I got them completely apart using a modified pair of circlip pliers too.  Getting them back together was another issue.  You need a press-tool, but I doubt that it would really help much.

OK then, seeing you got them back together, I would really love a quick howto on just how you did that.  You seem to need an awful lot of force to push the spring down enough to click the circlip back in place.  I couldn't do it.  And I tried real hard.  You didn't do it by not putting that washer on the base of the spring so that it sits lower did you?

You probably did it the right way, I'm just real surprised.  But then again, you are the wise man.  ;)
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: ffourc on Mar 17, 2006, 10:03AM
love your axle stands Noss. (or Sqoss - fomerly known as noss)

re- upgrading from drum to disks - you'll also need the disc hand brake cables, also drum/disc attachment to rear struts is different, so an adaptor plate at the least (I can't image they'd use different struts on the same cars)
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on Mar 17, 2006, 04:27PM
hehe.. what axle stands? ::) :P
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jono on Mar 18, 2006, 02:34PM
ok that really didnt answer my question but since im goin from drums to disc it will work since i will have to get the whole rear brake caliper, rotor and everything else

I believe the base of the strut is different (the bit with the stub axle), and as ffourc said you need the disc handbrake cables as well.

Getting them back together was another issue.  You need a press-tool, but I doubt that it would really help much.

I put my caliper between the jaws of a vice with a tube the right size pushing the spring and its retainer into the caliper. For a tube I used an old gudgeon pin I had lying around.
______                                                                ___________
          ] ____________                                        [                   |
          ] |  spring          _____________________  [                   |
 vice    ] | \    /\   |----  |            tube                | [      vice        |
          ] |   \/    \ |----  |____________________| [                   |
          ] |___________                                        [                   |
          ]         caliper                                           [                   |


meh paint would have been clearer but you get the idea. You use the vice to compress the spring, then put the circlip back in while it's still in the vice.

I tried doing it in a vertical press but a vice is so much easier to work with.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 18, 2006, 02:44PM
Thanks for the howto.

It looks like I'll be trying it.  I'll let you all know how it goes.

I tried with a vice too, but I wasn't using a bolt, and I think my vice may have been a bit small, so I ended up using a G-clamp, and that slipped all over the place....

I will buy a new vice (I chucked out the old one in the move anyway) and give it another go.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jono on Mar 18, 2006, 04:28PM
Ahh sorry mate, I was thinking the spring was in the piston... it's in the caliper isn't it? It was a number of months ago that I rebuilt the calipers so my memory is a little rusty.

I still used the same idea to replace the spring.

I just edited my post, it should make a little more sense now ::)
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 18, 2006, 08:14PM
Ah yes, that does make more sense.  I distinctly remember needing something cylindrical, but with a hole in the middle to use as a pushing tool.  My memory of the whole incident is rusty now too.

Do you (or anyone) have any suggestions for the best way to clean the cylinder once I get the piston out?  From memory it gets a bit tricky to get a toothbrush at the bottom.  Maybe there's some fluid I could use?  I know the manuals say not to use anything else but brake fluid (and definitely not mineral oils) - but I want those cylinders sparkling if I'm gonna go to all this trouble.

Also, any ideas on cleaning out the guide pin sockets?  I'm sick of cleaning them out manually with a cotton bud, or rag and screwdriver - there's gotta be a better way.  Right?
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jono on Mar 19, 2006, 04:30PM
For the cylinder, I just used a scourer and white spirits, and for the slide pins I used the pins themselves to clean out the pin sockets in a tub of kerosene.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: nu12 on Mar 20, 2006, 09:00AM
Okey dokey, I'll let you all know how I go.  Isn't kerosene a mineral oil?  You'd wanna get that stuff off before putting the rubber bits back on.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jono on Mar 20, 2006, 06:17PM
I just used a hose to hose all the kero off the parts. And I didn't use kero on the cylinder or any of the working parts of the brakes, just the bracket and pins.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Kranzy on Mar 20, 2006, 06:20PM
Im sure you could wash the kero off with petorl. It will get rid of the oily finish caused by the kero and also it dries really quickly so you wont have to wait forever for it to dry to be able to continue working.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: Jono on Mar 20, 2006, 06:40PM
I use white spirit to wash kero off parts that shouldn't be oily. I find petrol leaves a slight residue behind.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: pumbaplus on May 21, 2006, 01:12PM
something off topic seemed offf.......

are you only using the jack to support the car\???????

stands are 29 bucks.... i know i would trust them over a jack.


anyways , good upgrade though.
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on May 23, 2006, 05:23PM
i have stands.. not sure why i didnt use them.. i used them on the other side..
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: [JET-20T] on May 28, 2006, 04:58PM
Stupid question time...

Does an import u13 has the same brakes or similar to a local version???
Title: Re: u12 -> u13 attesa twin piston brake upgrade
Post by: noss on May 29, 2006, 02:14PM
same diameter discs on the local model, but the import has twin piston as opposed to single piston and the discs on the import are thicker