Author Topic: dyno power figures  (Read 7793 times)

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Offline fez200

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dyno power figures
« on: Sep 16, 2006, 06:41PM »
had my car dynoed yesterday and it only got 130Kw at the wheels.

thought it would of made a bit more power than that. as they have 155kw at flywheel std.

ive got 3" exhaust, intercooler, 14psi boost. auto trans.

the dyno mechanic reckons its the T25 turbo thats letting it down. cause its running out of puff and losing max boost high in the rev range, i was wondering if there was something else wrong.

has anyone else had there car dynoed? what power and mods have you done to get it..
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Offline xxxx

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #1 on: Sep 16, 2006, 06:46PM »
small turbo's on high boost spool really quickly, but they tend to choke at high rpm. if you bolted on say a standard R33 skyline t28 which will cost about $300 you will get a much higher figure but it wont hit boost as quickly.
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Offline Alister

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #2 on: Sep 16, 2006, 08:52PM »
Just how much power were you expecting bud?

The ATTESA drivetrain loses a tonne of kw from the fly to the wheels. AWD/4WD is the worst configuration for drivetrain power loss.

Offline Craazy

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #3 on: Sep 16, 2006, 09:17PM »
i am not surprised by that power figure, sounds pretty normal for the mods you have, i was lucky to get 150kws with the mods i have and mine is manual. so you have a high powered auto which is hard to get in a pretty much standard u13.

a standard u13 will put out max 100kw's at all 4's

if i was you i would be stoked with that much power from your auto. a few of us have figured that there is about a 35% power loss through an auto so factor that your car is making around 180kw's at the flywheel, mine is making about 190kw's at the flywheel through my manual gearbox. your car is going really well by the sounds of it.

have fun with it buddy


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Offline fez200

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #4 on: Sep 17, 2006, 11:14AM »
sweet.  i just wasnt sure it was right, but by the sounds of it its pretty good.

i think the dyno mechanic thought it had more in it. he hadnt seen a U13 attesa before and he probably thought they went better than that. but im pretty happy with it, but he is right that the standard T25 runs out of puff. but xxxx was right they do spool quicker.


hope to see any of you guys at the cruise today.
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Offline Craazy

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #5 on: Sep 17, 2006, 01:33PM »
the t25 does run out of puff, the max on them is really about 12psi all the way through the rev range, you can set them higher but it will taper off from about 5500rpm to red line. a good upgrade is a gtir turbo:)


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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #6 on: Sep 17, 2006, 06:43PM »
i can't get anymore than 10psi at redline (i run up to 16psi in the mid-range), even with the wastegate basically jammed shut, just wont go higher.

only real other airflow restriction i have is the standard dump pipe (ghetto exhaust places up here said they couldn't make a new one, not enough room, damn i hate townsville businesses) - gotta get me something done about that! :)

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #7 on: Sep 17, 2006, 07:32PM »
phreeky, SSS should have something for you very soon

how about your afm?? still standard or have you had it upgraded to a Z32, you have abikirom dont you??


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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #8 on: Sep 17, 2006, 11:57PM »
afm is standard, at this stage i don't see a need to upgrade until i max it out, it's not much of an air flow restriction really. i'm looking after tuning via a daughterboard and eprom writer and a wideband o2 sensor myself. putting an adjustable fpr on to squeeze more out of stock injectors (stock fpr just died, so wasn't gonna replace with standard).

a suitable dump pipe would be nice. so long as it'll still bolt up to something like a gt28rs.

Offline Craazy

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #9 on: Sep 18, 2006, 08:32PM »
hmm if your running anything over 12 psi then your afm IS maxing out, gauranteed, mine max's out on 11psi, even 9psi it will max 5V's at 6800 rpm. i have a 3inch intake so that sucks in a bit more air so that doesnt help the situation.

as soon as you do the daughterboard i recommend you going the z32 metre as it will make the car run heaps better in the higher rpm, after seeing the dyno figure's and seeing what happens when it maxes the afm..... 6400rpm on 11psi = max power of 150kw's then a 45 degree line back down from there to 7500rpm...... not a good look i have to say.

the adjustable afr is good too, i changed mine to one when it carked it. very good investment. what you have in mind will free up alot of extra power and with the dump will make your car breathe so easily instead of the snot it has up its nose now :D


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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #10 on: Sep 19, 2006, 04:21PM »
threw consult on the other night, finally went through the log files last night - afm hits 4.6v in 1st & 2nd gear, haven't logged a 3rd or higher gear run yet.

i don't think i'll max it out with my current setup mostly due to the dump pipe i think, it is so small in diameter at one point, i'm guessing you have a your dump pipe sorted? i'm still running a panel filter, a little skeptical about whether a pod would help things but it's a simple mod so i should probabyl try it and see at least.

but yeah i do plan on a z32 afm, a dump pipe, daughterboard, turbo, and squeeze some more out of the injectors with the fpr until i can afford new ones. but it'll take a little bit of time, don't exactly have bundles of cash just laying around to spend on the car atm :(

btw when you max the afm out, it'll hit what people call "boost cut", and fuel will cut and you'll certainly know about it - it's a very hard limiter in a sense. you wont just max the afm out without knowing it. what is your injector duty cycle like atm?

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #11 on: Sep 19, 2006, 09:00PM »
injector duty cycle is over 100 with the consult plugged in, i havent sorted my dump pipe yet so that wont be the only thing to max it out, you have a 3inch intake yet?? i am pretty sure that is what tipped it over the edge. if i was to do something to the ecu and put in the z32 then i am sure there would be more power capable out of the engine, so i wouldnt shrug at 160kw's at all 4's with the standard turbo and and injectors :)

i have hit the fuel cut on 16psi. it did make it sound not too healthy...... with an adjust of the fpr's then you will get a good response from putting on the pod filter, when i put the pod on originally thats when the fpr carked it and was leaning out heaps


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Offline Budgie

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #12 on: Sep 19, 2006, 09:40PM »
Stock dump pipe is total absolute rubbish phreeky, as you know mate!

I still have a stock HNU12 dump pipe (or rather, SSS has at his place) which will be used as a starting point for the split dump setup.  Work has stalled at the moment.

Hugh, again chatting about my dyno power figure of 84.4awkw, this does seem accurate to a degree.

8psi @ peak power.  Stock flywheel power of 128kw.  A 44kw differance.  Remembering that blacktop auto HNU13 that made 90+ something awkw last time.
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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #13 on: Sep 20, 2006, 09:39AM »
Craazy: yeah well i put consult on but only software i had was ecutalk which doesn't give inj duty cycle. i tried doing the calculation in excel with the csv and it was spiking to 112%! but i'm hoping/guessing i stuffed the calculations up, who knows, running lower boost now just in case. i'm still running the airbox, k&n panel filter, and the stock intake pipe (well, airbox has a dodgy but acceptable cold air intake, but airbox->afm->turbo is all stock) - do you really think it'll make a difference?

budgie: yeah mate that dump pipe is a pita, i've got a stock gtir dump which i think is the same so i've got something to work from too. u got a hnu12, cos i thought u had a rnu12??

Offline Impakt

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #14 on: Sep 20, 2006, 10:07AM »
Consult does spit out figures that equates to > 100% duty cycle so i wouldn't worry about it.

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #15 on: Sep 20, 2006, 10:57AM »
budgie: yeah mate that dump pipe is a pita, i've got a stock gtir dump which i think is the same so i've got something to work from too. u got a hnu12, cos i thought u had a rnu12??

I got it from a HNU12 wreck in Melbourne, which is also where I got my SSS-R bonnet from.  So yeah, I do have an RNU12.
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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #16 on: Sep 20, 2006, 02:31PM »
hey impakt know you've done lots of consult stuff, so maybe you can explain this a little (hopefully)

based on our typical car engines, each cylinder fires once every two revolutions, is that right? so from that you can work out how many milliseconds there is per cycle of the engine (2 revolutions). consult actually gives injector time in milliseconds for a given revolution, so from that you work out what percentage of the cycle the injector was open.

my calculations brought me to IDC=(IngTime*RPM/120000)*100

am I way off? to be honest i'm lost how consult can tell you the injector time simply in milliseconds, don't they actually pulse constantly? and so would the number given by consult actually be the number of pulses per cycle and therefore you can't actually tell if the injectors are "maxing out" without knowing the max pulse speed of the injectors or something? it's a bit beyond my knowledge atm.

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #17 on: Sep 20, 2006, 08:09PM »
my calculations brought me to IDC=(IngTime*RPM/120000)*100

am I way off? to be honest i'm lost how consult can tell you the injector time simply in milliseconds, don't they actually pulse constantly? and so would the number given by consult actually be the number of pulses per cycle and therefore you can't actually tell if the injectors are "maxing out" without knowing the max pulse speed of the injectors or something? it's a bit beyond my knowledge atm.

That equation looks almost right.

Injectors pulse once per revolution. And all this talk of milliseconds is getting me confused.

Let's say a full cycle of each cylinder happens in 2 revs... the time taken for the engine to complete two revs would be:

CycleTime = 1 / (120,000 * RPM)

So:

Duty cycle = InjTime / Cycletime * 100


I think ???
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Offline Craazy

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #18 on: Sep 20, 2006, 08:51PM »
yeah budgie has the rnu12 i have the hnu12, and mine makes almost double his power haha :P and even after blowing a tyre on the dyno... :P

i am not 100% on how the consult reads or displays the injector stuff but i am only going by it saying duty cycle and it only goes to like 120 so i am almost getting to that :(

if the dump pipe gets made up then there will be an interest to see the difference between that and standard. there would be a good one i'd think.

i wanted to get mine in with a screamer pipe coming off the wastegate but since the clutch is stuffed im not in a hurry


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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #19 on: Sep 20, 2006, 11:57PM »
CycleTime = 1 / (120,000 * RPM)

So:

Duty cycle = InjTime / Cycletime * 100

I think ???

That comes to  DUTY_CYCLE=INJ_TIME*120000*RPM*100

Offline Impakt

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #20 on: Sep 21, 2006, 02:33PM »
To calculate duty cycle:

RPM * injector pulse width / 1200 = duty cycle in %

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #21 on: Sep 21, 2006, 03:25PM »
Sorry to keep going on with this, but so what does a duty cycle of over 100% mean then? How can it be possible, and how can someone running over 100% duty cycle still be showing good AFRs? Btw that's the same equation I ended up with so my figures of 112% duty cycle are correct I guess.

One of my mates suggested that maybe the duty cycle is the time open for a single revolution and so over 100% represents an injector working after the intake valve is closed - it would then be effective for the next fire of the cylinder (not as well though of course) and so result in acceptable AFRs still.

I'm getting the feeling the only way of finding what it truly represents would be an external datalogger spliced into one of the injectors wires and comparing with the consult data.

Offline Impakt

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #22 on: Sep 22, 2006, 10:16AM »
a duty cycle > 100% in reality is impossible. 100% duty cycle means the injector never closes - by the time the current pulse has completed, it's already time for it to open up again and inject fuel for the next cycle.


The reason why you see > 100% on Consult is because the ECU is programmed to keep the injectors open for a period of time which is longer than the engine cycle time itself.


I have no idea what the ECU does when it encounters these pulse widths, my guess is that it just leaves the injector open

Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #23 on: Sep 22, 2006, 11:59AM »
That doesn't explain why it shows no sign of leaning out (but i'll be double checking this weekend with a wideband), but I've been chatting to someone who has done a lot of nissan ECUs. My mate has the disassembled code from a GTiR ECU that he has started sorting through, I'll start having a look through it this weekend and hopefully work out this part - apparently the number that is returned for the injector time by consult is anything by the injector open time per cycle in milliseconds, and the ECU simply uses this number to determine the injector time.

Offline Jono

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #24 on: Sep 22, 2006, 10:43PM »
Reading through the info on phatg20.net the Consult number is a percentage of what the maximum injector pulse time is for a given RPM on a completely standard car.
« Last Edit: Sep 22, 2006, 11:33PM by Jono »
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Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #25 on: Sep 22, 2006, 11:15PM »
That's the thing, consult doesn't give a percentage. It gives some number, normally from 0-25 or so, that represents how much fuel to inject. Due to being in the correct sort of range, somebody at some point has assumed it is injector time per revolution in milliseconds. Unless someone throws an external datalogger on to compare it, or gets the design info from nissan, or disassembles and reverse engineers the code from the ecu, then you just don't know.

Has anybody done this? I know some parts of the code have been reverse engineered, has anybody actually checked to ensure this number represents what people say it represents? Anyway hopefully I'll find out on the weekend using a wideband o2 sensor.

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #26 on: Sep 22, 2006, 11:37PM »
Reading through the document again it seems I was looking at the adjustment section instead of the output section.

Quote from: http://www.phatg20.net/media/diagrams/CPC.pdf
Injector pulse time | LSB | 0x15 | Value / 100 (mS)

So I guess you take the value, divide it by 100 and that's the injector pulse time in mS ... ???
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Offline bluebird

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #27 on: Sep 24, 2006, 05:13PM »
Just another thought on dyno figures.
I am sick of chasing big dyno figures.
AVO in melbourne dynoed my car at 172 kw at the wheels.
I have hiflowed turbo,ems management system running map sensor,avo front mount cooler,
2.5 inch exhaust ,15 psi etc.
I then had high flow air intake done with k+n pod filter plus malpassi
fuel pressure reg plus 3 inch exhaust from cat back plus walbro fuel pump.
Then went back for dyno and they got 171 kw. Go figure.
They rekon my dump pipe is giving me all of my restriction.
They suggested twin dump into 3 inch all the way.(big bucks)
I have given up with figures.
As long as the cars mixtures are safe I am happy.(thats the real reason for the dyno)
If I can get 2 car lengths in front of an xr6 turbo thats fine by me.
Eventually I will get a dump pipe and then leave it at that. It has to stop somewhere.
At the end of the day If I went somewhere else I am sure I will have a different dyno readout anyway.

Offline phreeky

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #28 on: Sep 25, 2006, 01:28AM »
Well with your power figure not changing, the fuel system stuff would have achieved nothing other than reliability/stability, and the 2.5" and airbox were probably flowing fine for what power you're making, no real surprise it didn't change.

I plan to go until I hit around 200-220kwatw, but it's a slow progression.

Btw I put the wideband on my car today (well, technically yesterday now), I'll post a graph soon but basically it was AFM hitting around 4.6v, injectors going close to 110%, AFRs levelling off at 12:1 up in the power. The stock fuel pressure regulator was actually running the car a bit rich by the looks of things, i dropped the pressure a bit and then had much nicer mixtures both in idle, cruise + on the power, odd. The top section of my stock fpr felt quite loose though and something inside it must have broken down or come loose.

Offline dave-trx

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Re: dyno power figures
« Reply #29 on: Sep 25, 2006, 05:22AM »
171kw atw aint bad, i would be more then happy with that. How does the car go against skylines and supra's.
Your car may be able to go faster.
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