Author Topic: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?  (Read 10970 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Febrile

  • Forum Predator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +36/-13
  • I like having thumbs
I've been doing a lot of reading about climate change and global warming lately.  I've always been worried about the environment (thanks Captain Planet!), but now that I'm older and thanks to the internet I'm able to solidify that worry into genuine concern and interest.  I've been reading a lot about various related topics - peak oil, nuclear energy, sustainable practices etc.

I have no doubt about CO2 accumulation in the atmosphere affecting the climate - I'm a strong believer in the idea that lots of small contributions add up to a very big one: there's only so much gas in the atmosphere, and if we make more of it CO2 than before, it must do something.

Since we've not had a significant discussion thread for a while, I thought I'd ask what you guys think about it all.  How much do you care about these issues, and the environment in general?

Also, I promise to keep my posts brief and readable in this thread.  Heh.
Doo-woop-shoobie-doo-waah

Offline SAIUN

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Karma: +7/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • ~(> ^_^)>
I've been following the global warming theory for a while now, from its origins as a crackpot conspiracy theory to the popularity it has now. The problem is once a crackpot theory gains a bit of popularity, it all snowballs from there and everyone starts believing in it. 99.999% of the people who support the theory of global warming are completely unaware of the hokey pseudo-science behind it. It works similarly to religion: based on faith rather than evidence, and it makes people feel better. The idea that you can do your little bit to help make the world a better place is a pleasing thought to most people.

I can keep ranting, but I'm tired and I can always post again later in the thread.  ;)
Current mods:
ANTRX.com KA24E Stage 2 ECU chip (5kW)
ANTRX.com sticker (30kW) ;D

... that's about all.

Offline Jono

  • The Wise Man
  • Global Moderator
  • post whore
  • ****
  • Posts: 5748
  • Karma: +159/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • memory boy!
Who's to say it isn't a cycle that happens every few million years?

What killed the dinosaurs? Was it a bout of global warming that then set off an ice age when everything died and stopped producing CO2?

Look around you, cycles are everywhere in nature.
#1 Post Wh0re
pringles was here!

Offline Febrile

  • Forum Predator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +36/-13
  • I like having thumbs
Hehe, I thought I might find this type of sentiment here.  Time for debate!

As I mentioned in my first post, I strongly believe in the effect of CO2 on the climate.  I would assume that none of you debate the fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in that it helps to trap heat in the atmosphere - this is scientifically verifiable.

The volume of gas in the atmosphere is finite - this is also a fact: gravity can only hold it in to a point.

Fossil fuels contain carbon from long dead biomatter.  When this is burnt, CO2 is released.

Assuming the levels of oxygen, nitrogen and most of the rest of the gases in the atmosphere (excepting methane) are being produced at their natural rate, our fossil fuel use means we are releasing carbon created in a previous era which has long been out of the cycle. 

Assuming the forces which deplete/negate CO2 in the atmosphere remain at their natural levels, then it is being added to a finite space and not being taken away any faster.  Just like a bucket full of oil, if you poured water into it long enough, all that would be left in the bucket would be water.

Because of the carbon density of fossil fuels, we are emitting CO2 at a very fast rate, and if we continue to do so, we must inevitably fill up the bucket.

It may be a cycle, Jono, but even if it is, we're accelerating it at a rate which causes change to occur at a rate we cannot adapt to.
Doo-woop-shoobie-doo-waah

Offline wicked

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • Karma: +7/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • U13
Have you guys watched, "The great global warming swindle?" I'm half way through it and scientist claim that there are times where there is much more carbon dioxide (like the start of the US industralisation, that's where motor vehicles started mass production), the temp didn't actually increase, but drop instead, totally opposite of what the politicians are telling us. The scientist found a link between the sun's cosmic ray affecting the clouds, then it affects carbon dioxide level, not so much of green house vs carbon dioxide effect. Do find the video and watch it. It was supposed to be shown on ABC but I'm not sure if that ever happen.  :)

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
i saw a very good documentary on the the national geographic channel thing or discovery or whatever about all this, was quite interesting.

according to the documentary, scientists have a theory, which they've proven through scientific means, as scientists do, how the fossil fuel was created.. global warming, which as jono pointed out, is a naturally occurring process that happens over millions of years, and when it happened last time, it caused what the boffins refer to as a 'hyper-greenhouse state' the atmosphere heated up that much that the temperature change in the oceans ceased, and as such the ocean currents stopped moving. this in turned caused the oceans to be quite toxic.. of the top of my head i think it was loaded with nitrogen.. causing all the big old dinosaurs that like a bit of a swim to die, sink to the bottom and eventually become trapped in your fuel tank via a process that spanned millions of years. add to this, pretty much everything in the world died.. no wayward comets or the earth's imaginary second moon colliding with us to kill dinosaurs, it was global warming.. a naturally occurring thing

anyway, long story short, the hyper-greenhouse state is bad.. and we're no where near it. but according to whatever snippet of tv i was watching, we're getting there at an accelerated rate compared to last time.

they also mentioned peak oil and all that kind of stuff, and well, most people think we're past the peak, if not, it will be in the next 2-3 years.. but there isnt much you can do about what we've used.. people focus too much on that rather than whats going to happen in the future. running out of oil is a serious issue considering we're a world full of people who totally and utterly relies on it.

watching a single well prepared documentary hasnt changed anything for me though. i'm still sceptical about global warming. this summer in brisbane wasnt anywhere near as hot as when it was i was here in school. we have less rain, but i blame that on china.. cause thats what everyone else seems to do..

anyway, check this car out, this is a guy trying to solve a problem

http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2007/05/stories/11/1.html

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
oh something i always wanted to bring up in the whole global warming debate is this..

we have the sun, which is a star, and anyone that has done basic science stuff in primary school learns that stars as they get older increase in temperature, size, change colour etc etc until it eventually implodes on itself or explodes or whatever it feels like doing at that particular point in time.

that said.. why hasnt anyone suggested the sun aging, becoming hotter etc etc as a cause for global warming?

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Quote
why hasnt anyone suggested the sun aging, becoming hotter etc etc as a cause for global warming?

Cos the boffins say it hasnt been getting hotter... just the 11 year solar cycle.

In relation to the whole cycle of global warming, i'm inclined to agree to an extent... that movie, 'Day After Tomorrow' where the northern hemesphere froze over.  Although overdramatised, I place the theory as plausable.

I was watching Landline or something similar on ABC not long ago which discussed the research of a guy doing deep lake core samples to find water levels (rain levels) from hundreds of years ago.  There was a graph which seemed to cycle (about twice) over centuries, of which we were at the bottom of... indicating Australia has been much wetter, but not much drier.

Offline hrmmmm

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
  • Karma: +13/-7
  • Gender: Male

anyway, check this car out, this is a guy trying to solve a problem

http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2007/05/stories/11/1.html

Sorry to spoil it for anyone but this car is a tesla ELECTRIC car.
     The problem I and a few other people in our society have with cars like this ( toyota prius) is that they actually produce more greenhouse gas than a 6ltr HSV performance commodore.
  How so, the tesla and other's like it need electricity to run or in the prius's case efficiantly. How is the electricity produced?. By burning coal in powerplants.This creates thousands of tonnes of greenhouse gas a year.
    On average according to carsguide a prius creates half a tonne more greenhouse gas overall than the holden V. Imagine how much the tesla electric car would create.

Just my yr 10 level 2cents worth.

Offline oldn_tired

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Karma: +20/-1
When you look at the oil and coal deposits we are currently tapping into and consider the ones we have yet to find, can you imagine the concentrated amount of animal and vegetable matter which went into producing these reserves.
It would be a phenomenal amount, I would like to see a projection of what the world was like prior to the time when all of this matter died off.
Surely the pressure on the ecological systems at that time were massive and the reaction must have been equally massive to enable the rapid die off to create the concentration of these deposits.


Offline Colby

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 2395
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • KA24DE powered TRX
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 13, 2007, 11:38AM »
As far as electricity debate goes:   Coal is too cheap to not be used for power... not to mention it is australias biggest export!  seriously, australian economy would suffer without it.  In australia we wont be using nuclear in the near future if at all, simply because it is too expensive to implement, sure we have plenty of uranium to use, but we have more coal, and its more accessable with current infostructure.  The point of the electric car is to take pressure off oil consumption which is only going to decrease in supply, and probably not too distant in the future.  Electric technologies are improving continually and at a fast pace, future electric cars will not be what they currently are.  Its like comparing a car engine of 1920 to the engine of today, except electonics industry is moving much more rapidly.

Think of this... if you buy $20,000 home solar system, and an electric car.  On most summer days you would produce enough energy to power your house and car.  Thats on current technology.  Only in times of nasty cloud, night and solar elclipses might you need to utilise the dirty but extremely cheap coal fired power.  (ignore the fact that solar panels require lots of oil product to make)

Offline eurisko

  • Frankenmotor Builder
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Karma: +66/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Oldschool and Newstyle
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 13, 2007, 11:46AM »
This always shits me...

I've been following the global warming theory for a while now, from its origins as a crackpot conspiracy theory to the popularity it has now.

Automatically linking conspiracy theories to crackpots. Sheep much?  ::)

Nonetheless, back to the point.

     The problem I and a few other people in our society have with cars like this ( toyota prius) is that they actually produce more greenhouse gas than a 6ltr HSV performance commodore.
  How so, the tesla and other's like it need electricity to run or in the prius's case efficiantly. How is the electricity produced?. By burning coal in powerplants.This creates thousands of tonnes of greenhouse gas a year.

Errr... incorrect. The vehicle doesnt produce more greenhouse gas, the methods for producing the electricy are. But lets think of what this means.

If we invest more money, time and research into extremely efficient greenhouse free vehicles (as in electric cars... which by the way, also produce Ozone... the good kind of greenhouse gas) we can then focus on producing green energy.

There are litterally HUNDREDS of ways of producing greenhouse free energy. Solar, wind, wave, geothermal, microwave, nuclear... etc etc etc are all just tiny examples of what can be used.

I personally believe that this greenhouse effect non-sense is over dramatisised and not fully understood at all. People are looking for ways to get funding... plain and simple.

Explain how, if the northen hemisphere produces almost all of the greenhouse gases, why the SOUTHERN hemisphere has the hole in the ozone layer? Not only do the wind currents prevent any gases from moving from the northern to southern hemisphere (and vice versa) but there is no tangible evidence to prove that the hole was caused by CO2 emmissions.

Natural cycles? Perhaps. Should i really be caring? Not really. Why? Because i fail to see why the small pesant should be responsible for the burdon of cleaning his/her act, when big business is told it can run free game and make billions of dollars, on our expense.

Pffft. Its big business, no matter how u look at it.

 :P

But thats just one crackpot point of view. ::)
« Last Edit: Jun 13, 2007, 11:48AM by eurisko »

The Nissubishda will live....

Offline SAIUN

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Karma: +7/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • ~(> ^_^)>
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 13, 2007, 12:17PM »
I would assume that none of you debate the fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in that it helps to trap heat in the atmosphere - this is scientifically verifiable.

Fossil fuels contain carbon from long dead biomatter.  When this is burnt, CO2 is released.
Cars, for example (often blamed for "greenhouse gas emissions") produce more carbon monoxide than carbon dioxide, which is not a greenhouse gas. And as for CO2, there's debate as to whether or not the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is already saturated (absorbing as much heat as possible), and thus any more CO2 in the atmosphere would make no difference.

Oh, and let's not forget ice ages. Contrary to popular belief, dendrochronological studies (looking at the insides of thousands of years old trees to see what previous climates were like) suggest that ice ages can onset from regular inter-glacial periods (like the one we're in now) in just 80 years, the first 20 of which any change is imperceptible. In other words, if the next ice age started 20 years ago, we'd only just start seeing change now, and then in 60 years the climate would be the same as in the middle of an ice age. Who's to say global warming isn't a great way of staving off or even preventing an ice age? At the very least, slowing down the onset of an ice age would be highly desirable, as I doubt mankind's ability to cope with that much change in just 60 years.
Current mods:
ANTRX.com KA24E Stage 2 ECU chip (5kW)
ANTRX.com sticker (30kW) ;D

... that's about all.

Offline Febrile

  • Forum Predator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +36/-13
  • I like having thumbs
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 13, 2007, 03:34PM »
Geez, I thought there'd be at least a few of you who would be on my side.  One by one then:

wicked: That "documentary" had attracted massive criticism because, well, it's a swindle itself, and presents wrong or misleading information.  See http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle#Reception_and_criticism for reasons why.  And please, do yourself a favour and at least balance your viewpoint with a documentary about how global warming is real.

noss: We may be nowhere near that threshold you mention noss, but consider this: wikipedia says that 0.038% of the atmosphere is carbon dioxide.  Sure! This is tiny!  But all that means is that it is easier to double the amount.  The absolute amount of CO2 we release may seem small on the global scale, but it is the relative amount of CO2 in the air that's the real issue.  Earth today evolved with a certain ratio of gases in the air: we're changing that ratio.

Also, global warming doesn't mean all places get warmer; it's a bit of a misnomer.  The increased temperature of the earth disrupt existing weather patterns - hotter for some, colder for others.  And the sun takes millions upon millions of years to change.  It's energy release is measureable, and constant.

Langers_87: what eurisko said.  Blame the coal, not the car.  We should be moving away from coal.  And in any case, are you certain it would produce more CO2?  Electric engines are far more efficient than combustion ones, and steam turbines powered by burning coal are probably more efficient as well.

oldn_tired: you are right about how much biomatter is compressed into fossil fuels.  I can't understand why people don't think the sudden release (on earth timescales) of these materials will have no effect on the place.

Colby:: saying coal is too cheap to not use is a pretty weak argument.  Dumping pollutants directly into a river rather than treating them is cheaper for industry too, but they don't do that because it is illegal because it is bad for the environment.  Cheap as free energy is what has created our extremely energy dependent society - a step for the worse, in my opinion.

eurisko: That funding argument is a bit of baloney.  Surely there are easier ways for scientists to get money than trying to convince the entire world that global warming is real when it (supposedly) really isn't?

Also, laying the blame on "big business" is just moving the blame around in circles.  Who runs big business?  People!  How do you think big business will change it's ways?  When the people who run it decide it's more in tune with society's needs (and hence society's involvement with the business) to take environmental action.  How do we do that?  By demanding change on an individual level.

SAIUN: Wikipedia: "Carbon monoxide (CO): a product of incomplete combustion, carbon monoxide reduces the blood's ability to carry oxygen and is dangerous to people with heart disease."  CO is bad on it's own, and is the result of imcomplete combustion, and as a result is actually a small part of exhaust emissions.  And with regard to your iceage prevention strategy: so you would substitute a frozen future for a melted one?


A final point for me: assuming global warming does occur and is going to lead to significant climate change in the future, it is going to mean that people of generations to come are going to have a harder time living than we did.  Something I read somewhere went something along the lines of "if our ancient ancestors had been able to use more energy than they did, they probably would have".  We owe our wellbeing now to the fact that we are stealing it from future generations.  Our destructive actions today are precluding our children from enjoying the same standard of living as we did, and I personally cannot justify that.  It seems ethically and morally wrong, like I'm freeloading off the back of the future.

Bah, long post.  But at least each point is short :D
Doo-woop-shoobie-doo-waah

Offline SAIUN

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Karma: +7/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • ~(> ^_^)>
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: Jun 13, 2007, 04:28PM »
so you would substitute a frozen future for a melted one?
I actually meant it the other way around. Steady progression towards the "melted future" would be preferable to a sudden snap to a frozen one.

Oh, and this:




EDIT:
Surely there are easier ways for scientists to get money than trying to convince the entire world that global warming is real when it (supposedly) really isn't?
Anyone familiar with the scientific community knows that there is just as much sensationalism as there is in the media and journalistic community, but instead of everyone looking for the next big story, everyone wants to be the guy that discovered that the world's ending (and would presumably thus become the world's saviour for pointing it out). Take the idea of some distant asteroid crashing into the Earth and killing everyone. There are so many astronomers out there that conclude they've found an asteroid which is going to obliterate the planet. Regardless of the accuracy of their calculations, exaggeration of figures, exclusion of other figures, and overall manipulation of any of the "science" involved, they want to be taken seriously. The problem is that they won't until their theory/finding is believed on a large scale, and Average Joe that knows nothing about science and hasn't seen the results and evidence that are the cornerstones of science is too caught up with the implications of what's supposedly going to happen to care whether or not the science behind it is valid.

It's for the large part a catch-22 in that a theory can't gain popularity without proper supporting evidence, but once a theory has popularity the supporting evidence no longer matters because everyone believes it blindly. You can't then question the validity of a popular theory because it's acceptable by the general community as valid. Unfortunately, you get things like global warming and (sorry, but I know I'm going to offend here) religion slipping through the cracks, as they somehow gain popularity and are then perpetuated through blind faith. I know it's a bad paradigm to be referring to but it operates (in my view, at least) in a similar fashion. Someone comes up with an idea without unequivocally proving it, others shouldn't believe in it, but some choose to because it makes them feel like what they're doing isn't insiginificant, then everybody starts to believe it and disregards any claims that their beliefs are unfounded.

Meh, I warned you all earlier I'd be ranting in this thread.  :-X
« Last Edit: Jun 13, 2007, 08:38PM by SAIUN »
Current mods:
ANTRX.com KA24E Stage 2 ECU chip (5kW)
ANTRX.com sticker (30kW) ;D

... that's about all.

Offline eurisko

  • Frankenmotor Builder
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1520
  • Karma: +66/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Oldschool and Newstyle
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: Jun 13, 2007, 05:10PM »
Unfortunately Narxy, you have been douped into believe what they want you to believe. The people dont run or control anything (well, anything significant anyways).

Lets talk about the development of fossil fuels in cars from the beginning. We are talking about the use of Petroleum and Lead additives in vehicles here.

Did you know that the first cars ever invented ran on alcohol? All of the developments were based around using the cheap, affordable, and extremely clean burning alcohol (methanol).  Problem. You cant make money off alcohol when everyone can make it freely and quite inexpensively at home.

Solution. Big Business (aka Dupont and numerous other chemical companies) invent a patentable product, called Leaded Petrol, an extremely toxic and harmful chemical compound... and claim it is a solution to using alcohol (which at the time had a problem of being too flamable, and in our terms, constantly 'pinged' the engines, destroying them quickly).

Another Problem: How to make people want to buy Leaded Petrol, when a few years of research will yield a useable and reliable alcohol fueled car?

Solution: Big Business gets together, bribes the lawmakers, and puts a tax on alcohol, making it prohibitivley expensive to use. More expensive than a newly discovered alternative created by Dupont.

Result: Big business has made untold of trillions of dollars... at the expense of the health and well being of the people, and the environment in general.


eurisko: That funding argument is a bit of baloney.  Surely there are easier ways for scientists to get money than trying to convince the entire world that global warming is real when it (supposedly) really isn't?

Also, laying the blame on "big business" is just moving the blame around in circles.  Who runs big business?  People!  How do you think big business will change it's ways?  When the people who run it decide it's more in tune with society's needs (and hence society's involvement with the business) to take environmental action.  How do we do that?  By demanding change on an individual level.

SAIUN: Wikipedia: "Carbon monoxide (CO): a product of incomplete combustion, carbon monoxide reduces the blood's ability to carry oxygen and is dangerous to people with heart disease."  CO is bad on it's own, and is the result of imcomplete combustion, and as a result is actually a small part of exhaust emissions.  And with regard to your iceage prevention strategy: so you would substitute a frozen future for a melted one?


Whats easier? Proving something that cant be proven true or false, or trying say... to discover the cure for a cancer?

As for saiuns response, yeah, sure co is pretty bad. What does that have to do with Global warming or the environment in general?

I look at this situation this way. The damage will continue to be done, no matter what. People want, and NEED cheap energy. Third world countries (like India for example) are now coming close to being the largest producers of envrionmentally damaging waste on the planet. There are no regulations, law or any form of environmental protection in these countries.

If there is damage due to co2 emissions, then were are pretty much buggered. I have no doubt we have the technology, the means, and the money to resolve these problems quickly. But... who is willing to sacrifice their creature comforts for the greater good?

There is a simple solution in my books narxy, if your so worried about the future.

Dont have kids.  :P then you wont have to worry about what happens to this planet, really :D

The Nissubishda will live....

Offline Febrile

  • Forum Predator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +36/-13
  • I like having thumbs
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: Jun 15, 2007, 05:24PM »
I'm surprised that both of you are most focussed on believing global warming, rather than anything else.  Regardless of any conspiracy that may or may not exist surrounding global warming, I don't understand why people would choose to be apathetic toward the issue.  I don't see what anyone has to gain at the expense of others (unlike that leaded petrol thing) if we all take global warming seriously. 

So many of the practices we engage in nowadays are unsustainable, and fossil fuel use is one of them.  I disagree with the claim that we need cheap energy: I think it contributes to us dominating the planet so much that we are just destroying any balance that once existed.  We should try and minimise our dependence on cheap energy, because as it inevitably becomes harder to satisfy the demands of a growing world population, energy will become more costly, and dependence on it will only be a burden.

I feel that most people who choose not to believe in the credibility of global warming do so not because they don't consider it possible, but more because admitting so would mean they would have to lead less extravagant and wasteful lifestyles.

I personally feel that whether or not global warming turns out to be a real problem or not, minimising my impact on the planet's resources means I depend on less, and I can die with a clean conscience, knowing I didn't exacerbate humanity's depletion of the planet.  And just because I don't plan to have children doesn't mean I don't care about future generations.
Doo-woop-shoobie-doo-waah

Offline SAIUN

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Karma: +7/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • ~(> ^_^)>
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: Jun 15, 2007, 11:04PM »
And just because I don't plan to have children doesn't mean I don't care about future generations.

For me, it does.

And somewhat like politics, since I don't believe that I have any personal influence, I just don't care (although ranting on forums is a good stress reliever  ;) ).
Current mods:
ANTRX.com KA24E Stage 2 ECU chip (5kW)
ANTRX.com sticker (30kW) ;D

... that's about all.

Offline Febrile

  • Forum Predator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +36/-13
  • I like having thumbs
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: Jun 15, 2007, 11:29PM »
For me, it does.

And somewhat like politics, since I don't believe that I have any personal influence, I just don't care (although ranting on forums is a good stress reliever  ;) ).

Well I suppose if that's the case, then I can understand your apathy.  But I am saddened by the lack of concern you and people with the same attitude have for your fellow humans, whether they exist now or in the future.

I mean, it's like theft, isn't it?  We dislike thieves because they steal from others to lead a better life themselves: that's what we're doing by living our current lifestyles, yet people don't seem to feel the same about it.
Doo-woop-shoobie-doo-waah

Offline Febrile

  • Forum Predator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +36/-13
  • I like having thumbs
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: Jun 17, 2007, 07:45PM »
Here's an article: http://www.newstatesman.com/200306300007

Basically describes the effects of climate change, some of which involve quite a human cost.  Now, whether you put great stock in global warming causing climate change or not, isn't it worth trying to minimise your CO2 output just in case?  The only cost to you is (maybe) a little more effort, maybe you'll give up a bit of your material consumption - but you might help to save lives, of both people and animals.

Why is there such an unwillingness to adopt this mentality?
Doo-woop-shoobie-doo-waah

Offline SAIUN

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Karma: +7/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • ~(> ^_^)>
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: Jun 17, 2007, 08:31PM »
Try to understand this from my perspective. Once again, religion as an example:

You're telling me not to sin because I'll go to Hell. I don't think there is a Hell and so I can sin as much as I like. You then tell me that I shouldn't sin just in case there's a Hell, but I remain adamant that there isn't, and so I see no reason to stop sinning.

I'm sure polluting the environment is probably a sin anyway, so it's not really an analogy after all.  ;)

(note: I don't mean to make it sound like I do bad stuff on purpose. I don't go out of my way to step on ants as I walk, but I don't go out of my way not to, either.)
Current mods:
ANTRX.com KA24E Stage 2 ECU chip (5kW)
ANTRX.com sticker (30kW) ;D

... that's about all.

Offline harlot

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 337
  • Karma: +36/-31
  • Gender: Female
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: Jun 17, 2007, 08:38PM »
Try to understand this from my perspective. Once again, religion as an example:

You're telling me not to sin because I'll go to Hell. I don't think there is a Hell and so I can sin as much as I like. You then tell me that I shouldn't sin just in case there's a Hell, but I remain adamant that there isn't, and so I see no reason to stop sinning.


HAHA theres a topic garenteed for a lengthy discussion...
Im up for a chat about religion  :D
Xx
Who's a hot chicken!!

Offline slim

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Nissan Bluebird SSS 1996 ®
    • Pictures
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: Jun 17, 2007, 08:48PM »
HAHA theres a topic garenteed for a lengthy discussion...
Im up for a chat about religion  :D
Xx

start a thread theres going to be people interested.
Just check the rules first.
Ive got my opinions.


BACK to global warming ...
those that cared, i forget how you are, if you really cared then turn your PC off, sell your car and go plants trees!
  • Bosch HID Kit, Clear Side & Front Indicators + Bulbs
  • B&M Shortshifter
  • JVC DVD Touchscreen 5.1 Surround Sound
  • Full Whiteline Kit
  • Tokico Shocks
¤ slim's 1996 SSS Bluebird Project Thread

Offline harlot

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 337
  • Karma: +36/-31
  • Gender: Female
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: Jun 17, 2007, 08:54PM »

those that cared, i forget how you are, if you really cared then turn your PC off, sell your car and go plants trees!

FUKN GOLD!!!  ;D
Xx
Who's a hot chicken!!

Offline noss

  • Administrator
  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Karma: +278/-50
  • Gender: Male
  • great scott!
    • antrx
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: Jun 17, 2007, 09:18PM »
i just find this all very interesting that the person making a big deal over this, but probably just cause he likes to shoot people down in flames with his online debates, is driving a car that is nearing 20 years old which is far less efficient than current cars etc etc blah blah blah and then saying everyone else doesnt care lol.

http://polyfedelicio.us/imgs/ - free image hosting for whatever you like

Offline bogan_bob

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Karma: +16/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: Jun 17, 2007, 11:16PM »
LMAO!!!! GOLD

but

Whilst i tend to think that the recent global industrial revolution (yes it is relatively recent in global perspective) could be contributing to global warming, i think that the real affects are over rated. People like to 'doomsay', like ol mate Tim Flannery, always talking about the world and how it is going to change and life is going to be terrible. The thing is, putting out worst case scenarios, more often than not are twists on the actual facts and truths, scares people, which is mostly due to lack of education/understanding of the matter. At uni, i am surrounded by researchers that work with genetic engineering/genetically modified organisms if you like. There is a very negative image surrounding this topic but a study was done last year showing that directed education of the actual facts behind the the subject, in an unbiased manner, generally leads people to have more informed opinions. The final result from that study was that people were less sceptical of GMOs as they actually more prepared to accept the technology (generally as many myths were debunked).

Also, the fact is the reason humans have been so sucessful as a species is because of our abilty to adapt. Look at the spread of humans around the world - from -20 in Alaska to 40 plus in Africa etc., we can adapt, an increase in temp of 2 degrees over the next 100 years is not that bad for us. That is if it does actually increase at all.

My feeling is that 'climate change' and 'global warming' has now become more of a fad, making it 'cool' to support, as well as in Australia, being a way to 'stick it to the man/go agaonst the establishment' as the current govt is not prepared to rush into making unrealistic targets and commit to an unsuitable trading system until it has the full facts at hand.

I think the good thing to come out of all this current who har about global warming is that industry will be forced to clean up their emissions, new technologies will be developed etc so that there is less pollution produced, making the air cleaner and cauing less health problems. The same thing goes for peak oil - when this occurs, hopefully it will shock governments and private industry alike into looking at developing new renewable fuels, as well as more efficient ways a using the remaining oil.

http://ozvr4.com - check it out :)

Offline Smiley Of Terror

  • post whore
  • *****
  • Posts: 1001
  • Karma: +18/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: Jun 18, 2007, 03:02AM »
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much writing.

I'm on Narxysus' side.. the Earth is warming up 'cause of something. the only real change in the atmosphere has been the amount of CO2 we've put in it.
both things surely can't be good.

the weird thing I find is people go "oh no more oil means no more petrol"...

it kinda also means no more plastics... which the western world relies on as much as petrol.. no more polycotton tracky dacks for YOU!

nissan enthusiast who... umm... drives a toyota.

'95 n/a Mr2

Offline bondy

  • antrx.com senior member
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • Karma: +43/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • the bond
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: Jun 18, 2007, 03:18PM »
if the next ice age started 20 years ago, we'd only just start seeing change now, and then in 60 years the climate would be the same as in the middle of an ice age.

this morning, walking over to my exam, when everything was frozen (all the grass and puddles and stuff) and i realised i needed to pee. anyway it got me thinking that if everything got considerably colder, everyone would need to pee more often. and pee is warm.  and getting up to go to the toilet burns energy and keeps your body warmer than just sitting around, so i figure if everyone is peeing and exercising more, the temperature will have to go up :P  i hear you all saying 'but what about the dinosaurs, didn't they have to pee? and it didn't save them!' well, yes. i'm sure they did. and granted, one dinosaur would pee more than one person, but i think people are more widely dispersed across the globe than dinosaurs potentially were. 
so come on people, let's all pee more and save the world

lol i amuse myself :P and no i don't actually think this is even remotely plausible

Offline oldn_tired

  • antrx.com full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Karma: +20/-1
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: Jun 18, 2007, 10:11PM »
Dont know if I am correct but I remember hearing that there is more greenhouse gas caused by cows farting in the UK than the cars exhaust.
And if this is correct then the hole in the ozone layer probably started in 1983 oven a caravan park in tweedheads with me and six of my mates packed in one van over a rainy easter weekend (I take this opportunity to apologize to the world)

Offline bogan_bob

  • antrx.com junkie
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Karma: +16/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: Global warming, peak oil, sustainability, etc: your thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: Jun 18, 2007, 10:46PM »
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much writing.

I'm on Narxysus' side.. the Earth is warming up 'cause of something. the only real change in the atmosphere has been the amount of CO2 we've put in it.
both things surely can't be good.

the weird thing I find is people go "oh no more oil means no more petrol"...

it kinda also means no more plastics... which the western world relies on as much as petrol.. no more polycotton tracky dacks for YOU!



Id like to see the evidence for this apparent correlation between increasing global temps and and CO2 in the atmostphere. You'll struggle because there is no significant relationship. Temps over the past 100 years cant have been officially measured as they didnt have proper thermometers and it has only been over the past 20 years or so that they have been able to measure temperatures to .1 of a degree. In fact a there have been years within the last couple of decades where the average global temps were colder than the year before.

But you are totally right on the reliance on oil. Its also used in cosmetics, lubricants, etc, there is an unbeleivable number of products that rely on it.

http://ozvr4.com - check it out :)