Author Topic: Urgent help.  (Read 46532 times)

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #120 on: Mar 7, 2013, 08:02AM »
Quote
Same as for direct coil control: Set output to going high / inverted, around 3 ms dwell as a starting point and adjust from there.

Those are the settings required, quoted from Cramer to run a power transistor to fire the coil. I will be trying this again today, and if it doesn't work I'll be changing the transistor over to another.
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #121 on: Mar 7, 2013, 08:55AM »
I have been Quiet as this have gotten very specific to the car.

Ignition problems are serious here. Taking a punt can mean you'll be replaceing coils and fuses before you know it.

You say the extra bord???? I was under the impression the mse was for v3 processors but youurs I've a v2 processor on a v3 bord.

Your coil needs an igniter. These are either built into the coil or external or in the ecu. Internal coils can use a different trigger due to the way ms works.

I run a coil with built in igniter. (The igniter is what you have been calling the power transister) this requires the invert option in spark settings to be set to "no"

The invert option controls the trigger.. either going high or going low. The reason this happens is when you create the 5v logic signal through the primary transister in the ms it produces a square was signal of one polarity. When you pass it through an external ignighter it reverses the polarity.

If you have this setting wrong then a dutycycle of 20% (this is controled as a factor of dwell and rpm) will invert. You think your coil is working 20% but its inverted so it is working 80%. This can destroy the coil in as little as 5 seconds.

 I might expand on this when I'm home later and off the mobile phone.
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #122 on: Mar 7, 2013, 09:50AM »
Ho, shit this forum works at work.

As long as the megasquirt is controlling the coil you will be able to use spark maps.

Have you tested your coil works?  Test your coil lead first with a multi meter. It should be less then 1kohm.
Pull the coil lead off the dizzy and throw a spark plug on it (test the spark plug for continuity first) and hold the plug to ground so it can spark. put a +12v on the coil positive and touch a grounded wire for a split second on the coils neg. It should spark, if it does not start with very quick touches and increase the duration till your touching for say...... 2 seconds. If you have a ammeter (multimeter with 10 amp measurement) you can put this in the circuit. From battery, to ammeter positive. ammeter neg to coils positive. watch the ammeter as you do this. Typical measured energy output for a coil is at 7amps. If the circuit is flowing 7 amps before you release the wire off the neg terminal, and you STILL get no spark. then your coil is rooted.


If you coil tests fine. 
Check and double check your ign signal is setup how you think it should be.
Once you are happy, Get someone to sit in the car. Turn the ign on for 5 seconds and off. wait 10 seconds and Feel the coil. Is it hot? No? Turn ign on and wait for 10 seconds and turn off. wait another 10. is it hot?

Not turn ign on, with the plug still in the coil lead and held to ground. (you should have less then 1kohm between the end of the spark lead, through the lead and the spark plug, to the ELECTRODE on the plug (the pointy bit on the end of the plug in the middle, the end that goes in the engine)
Crank and look for spark. Only crank for 3-5 seconds max! Wait for 10 seocnds and check if coil is HOT!
If you get no spark, check your coil has +12V on the coil positive when ign is on.

If you get spark but it is VERY POWERFUL DO NOT YELL AWESOME and install the plugs and try to run the car. It wont work. ASK ME HOW I KNOW!
Switch the invert function in megasquirt. Whatever is the opposite of what it was just set to.

Crank again. Is the spark alot more mellow now? or is it even BRIGHTER?

If the bark is VERY BRIGHT AND AGRESSIVE then you likely have the invert function set wrong and the coil is over driving. Make sure your cranking dwell is set to about 3ms. before doing any of this testing. (you will up this later)

Measure your coil positive voltage against battery earth WHILE CRANKING you should have at least 10V here. If not make sure your battery is FULLY CHARGED and check again. If you still dont, HOTWIRE directly from the battery positive and try again.

As a furthur check you can check for current through the coil during crank. Hook the ammeter up like we did as descrived above. When cranking you will be looking for about 7A passing though the coil. If this is happening you should definetly be seeing spark. BE CAREFUL, some coils can draw 20A if the ign settings are incorrectly configured and this is enough current to fry most multimeters!


More on the ingiter.
If you have ATTEMPTED to drive your coil via the 5v logic output and your coil IS NOT the type with biult in igniter, you have likely fryed your 5v logic level transister on the MS main bord.
This is usualy visable on inspection as the transister will disintegrate from the current if something else on the bord does not fail first. the small transister that develops the logic signal can take no more then 500mA and this would be exceeded almost instantaniously if you are directly driving the coil with it.

The igniter setup can usually take 20+ amps (or 20, 000mA) and will properly drive a coil.
The igniter setup CAN drive a coil with built in igniter but the signal will be as described above, inverted by the intermediate igniter driver. or the 'redundant one' if you rather.
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #123 on: Mar 7, 2013, 10:31AM »
Some of that certainly was not what I wanted to hear, keep you's updated.
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Offline noss

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #124 on: Mar 7, 2013, 12:29PM »
i don't know if anyone here has heard of a site called google or not, but when i type into google "ka24e wiring ms2 ignition" the first 10 or so results that come up says that for some reason the ms2 doesn't work for some reason with the ka24 coil and most have bought things like msd blaster coils and the like as a solution. but then if i search for "ka24e megasquirt ignition" i get different results that have already been posted in the thread.

just keep in mind though, i haven't actually ready the thread so maybe this has been covered.. i just see words, check this for me, words, serial cable, words, something something.

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #125 on: Mar 7, 2013, 03:50PM »
Who wants a free shitbox ?
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Offline noss

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #126 on: Mar 7, 2013, 04:31PM »
i already have one..



but i'll stop posting now. i'm not being particularly helpful.

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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #127 on: Mar 7, 2013, 05:01PM »
Rubbish. It's all parts and electronics is all pipes. What could do to prevent one from using a mega squirt to control that coil? The coils specifics simply dictate the setup required in mega squirt to control it. and all coils that i know of as imply 2 'coils' of copper around a core encased in oil or epoxy.

But you do bring up an interesting point, You may be able to choose a different coil, expecially if you have burned the one you have. There are some good ones by Bosch such as the MEC723 that can punch out a whopping 120mj of energy with a 7A charge current. Or the IGN-1a race coil with built in igniter with similar power levels but much lower required Dwell's.
Limiting factors will be duty cycles, there is alot to think about before slapping any coil on there but i have made an easy calculator in an excel spreadsheet that i use to figure out duty cycle based on RPM, Dwell and cylinders.

If anyone ever wants a copy of it just note me and i'll email you the calculator.

Dude, download Skype onto your mobile phone and add me as a contact. We can then communicate in real time and get this shit sorted out quicker. This has been going on for way too long.
Then you can ask specific questions rather then me trying to cover every aspect of a scenario in a message board post, it's just painful and can get confusing if its not already TL;DR.


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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #128 on: Mar 7, 2013, 05:04PM »
I never did get a proper dizzy plug, I just bodged it up for the meantime to get the car started, perhaps it's so bodge that the car thinks I'm a [language filter smackdown]got and its preventing spark because it knows the dizzy isn't done right ?

Fuck it ill just buy the damn plug for $30 -_-

Also went to the wreckers and taxed 6 power transistors lol.

I have more pics of the ecu dismantled I'll throw up tonight, I removed the extra board to look for the JS10 ports etc.

Also cheers for the help crazy, I'll get back onto you about that tonight.
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #129 on: Mar 7, 2013, 05:36PM »
JS10 port is most likely going to be an unoccupied component termination hole on the PCB. there will be many of them. On the v2.2 they were close to the CPU but i think they moved to the proto area on the v3's (Have not worked on a v3 for a while) There will be js1, js2, js3 ect ect and they are simply breakout locations to modify input/outputs with the MS.

Rubbish on that too. A proper plug will be awesome i wont deny that. but you should be able to dodgy up a connection if you use enough nous and have the right equipment at your disposal.
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #130 on: Mar 7, 2013, 08:42PM »

These are the settings quoted by cramer to use while the Power transistor is hooked up to the MS2 to control the coil.



Removed the MS Extra board to check out these jumpers and ports for new jumpers to be added.


PCB Layout of my ecu.


Also, ryan and adam, you 2 have good knowledge of the tables for the ka motors, these good tables to start off at ? or can you screenshot me tables you guys used that are "better" ?



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Offline noss

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #131 on: Mar 8, 2013, 10:33AM »
aaron, VE tables are a slightly different arrangement to the fuel tables that the nissan ecu uses so not sure the info i have would help, but that depends on the arrangement of the VE tables.

For example in the Nissan ka24e/de, there is a basic fuel map which controls injector pulsewidth based on maf and tps. There are other elements such as vq maps and pulsewidth limiters etc, but the main fuel control is on the fuel map

in the mini, I have a VE map which sets the volumetric efficiency based on the map sensor and tps. Then there are the equivalent of the Nissan vq map for the map sensor and so forth, so mostly the same, but then there are another series of maps that then fine tune the pulsewidth of the injectors on top of the VE maps and all the other information and then to confuse things further there are learned maps in the NVRAM which will adjust the maps based on information from the o2 sensor.

so, the reason I bring this up is, for the vq map, do you have any other secondary map for fine tuning? Also are the values the % of volumetric efficiency? i.e. high load high rpm you have 135% efficiency which is probably what you'd see in a boosted application, pretty sure you can’t achieve 135% VE on an n/a although adam can correct me if i'm wrong maybe.

Further to the VE map question. Are you using both the VE map and the AFR map? Or are you supposed to just use one or the other? My reason for asking is if you are installing a wideband sensor which will then give information back to the ECU to in turn adjust fueling based on your AFR map, then what is the point of the having VE map? Check through your user manuals and what not and see if there is something that tells you to run one or the other.

your afr table looks safe, it’s definitely looking like a good start. Once you get the car up and running you might be able to run it a little leaner but not much more.

For timing, figures will also different, so if i give you the figures from say, a stock ka24e, the spark table is multiplied by either 2 or 2.5 (can't remember which) on the ka24e ecu. the ka24de ecu is a 1:1 value for spark. That though shouldn’t be too hard to deal with. you will probably want to dip down the advance in the low load low revs area of the spark advance map. my memory isn't great either but i remember seeing advance as high as 42 degrees in the high revs high load areas of stock ka24de maps. i'm at work so don't have any tuning gear with me, you'll have to wait until the weekend when i'm home.

i am also used to looking at maps in 3D to help with with a visual, can you get a screenshot for in some kind of 3D view?



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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #132 on: Mar 8, 2013, 06:26PM »
Can you take a pic of your "ms extra board" installed with the ms2 ecu if you get a chance?

Bare with me a second as im trying to understand it too. But volumetric efficiency. is an interesting one. But i think its rather simple once you are shown the math behind it.

I found this on wiki:
 volumetric efficiency is a ratio (or percentage) of what quantity of fuel and air actually enters the cylinder during induction to the actual capacity of the cylinder under static conditions.

What im reading here i intemperate as thins in math:

for a 4.1 liter 6 cylinder engine. Running gasoline with 14.7:1 AFR
So we take the engine size and divide it by the number of cylinders.
4.1/6=0.683 liters volume per cylinder.
(14.7 parts of air plus 1 part of fuel so we divide by 15.7)
0.683/15.7 = 0.043503

So to reach stoich burn ratio per ignition event my cylinder will need 43.5 millilitre of fuel and this will = 100% VE

Now the megasquirt needs things like, injector dead time, Battery voltage and injector size. This is to calculate the required pulse width needed, to inject 43.5 millilitre and reach VE.

Correct if im wrong please guys.

Moving on.

Your tables look good but i did notice your RPM bins in VE go to 7500 but your spark and EGO correction bins only go to 6000.
Also your VE from 0rpm to about 2000rpm looks way too high. Give it a crack but if it wont run pull these areas back.


Noss, The EGO map allows the wideband to attempt to achieve those set AFR's or to allow auto tuning algorithms to correct the VE table. The EGO sensor will have a preset tolerance it is allowed to change the map. Usually 5-10%
The VE table is the overall governing fuel table. You should have EGO correction's DISABLED for tuning!!!!! or you will wonder why you cant get your ve table stable.

As for reducing low load spark, Ign advance decrease as you INCREASE load. Those mid table ign look ok. But always go in careful with spark.

The areas below 2000rpm and on and below the 50kpa row will probably love to be bumped up. I run 25 degrees timing at idle to get it stable with the big cam.

gotta go.





« Last Edit: Mar 8, 2013, 10:29PM by crazy2287 »
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #133 on: Mar 9, 2013, 08:58AM »

thats the PCB in my version of the MS2 with the MSextra attachment.

Also, quick question, data logging for tunerstudio, how can I do it ?

Cramer asked for a copy of my tune and a datalog of it starting. Just a quick question while I have 2 minutes off work...
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #134 on: Mar 10, 2013, 10:42AM »
Yeah ok, the ting you are calling the "megasquirt extra" board is actually just the MSII CPU board. For future reference.

As for datalogging. Check under file, datalogging?

It should not be hard to find, I've got lots of flying time with megatune but only a few hours in tuner studio. So i cant remember it's location and i don't have tuner studio installed.

If you still cant find it let me know and i'll go find the tuning laptop and have a look.
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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #135 on: Mar 11, 2013, 10:01AM »
5 seconds on google.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/tunerstudio.html




i'm not reading this thread anymore. the lack of bothering to take any initiative in this thread shits me.

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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #136 on: Mar 11, 2013, 11:08AM »
Depends what you type into google is what yields you the results. I googled like 3 pages at work typing in stuff like "tuner studioMS data logging how to" and had no results in what I was searching for. Haven't had a chance to pull out the laptop and have a look.
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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #137 on: Mar 11, 2013, 03:57PM »

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #138 on: Mar 13, 2013, 03:56PM »
Datalog is done and sent off to cramer with a copy of my tune.

if he cant configue it, than ill get the jumpers installed and run off either an MSD or crane cams igntion setup to suit.
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #139 on: Mar 15, 2013, 01:09PM »
Results came back with Cramer saying "The RPM signal is very intermittent; I think that's preventing you from getting a good spark. Are you using the stock distributor or our add on trigger disc?"

Told him I'm running his disc, now it's time to do a cas tooth data log test,

If it is due to a low signal, could possibly be my dodgy temporary set up with the dizzy wiring, just placed the spade terminals on the pins till I get a plug.
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Offline SSS

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #140 on: Mar 15, 2013, 05:45PM »
just placed the spade terminals on the pins till I get a plug.

Fuck me. Seriously? Spade terminals?

Do you realise WHY the standard distributor terminals are gold plated?

No wonder it is not firing.


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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #141 on: Mar 15, 2013, 05:55PM »
Fuck me. Seriously? Spade terminals?

Do you realise WHY the standard distributor terminals are gold plated?

No wonder it is not firing.



I got the wires to connection thingy (spade as I called it) from out of the DE dizzy plug that committed suicide, so it should be the same as using the actual plug.
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Offline Pure_Sincerity

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #142 on: Mar 19, 2013, 09:32AM »
Sent Cramer a file of a tooth log, so he can see how we'll the MS2 is ready the trigger wheel.
He responded with this

Quote
I think the missing tooth is a bit too close to a compression stroke and it's getting lost in the noise. Try flipping the disc over.

That's not good, I can't personally flip the fucker over as its pressed in  >:(

Now considering changing over to a edis 4 setup with VR sensor, however the wiring for the edis 4 looks like a nightmare, also, pretty sure ill need jumpers installed to do so.
« Last Edit: Mar 19, 2013, 10:35AM by Pure_Sincerity »
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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #143 on: Mar 19, 2013, 12:44PM »
BUT I will not go further until I get the dizzy plug off sleepa and go over my dizzy wiring.
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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #144 on: Mar 19, 2013, 06:26PM »
I'm going to get the 1k ohm resistor soldered to the s12 space to bring it to a 12v pull up and add the jumper and drive the coil directly. I'm over chasing ends and back and forth messages with Cramer, this transistor shit and fuck right off.
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #145 on: Mar 20, 2013, 06:09PM »
are you not using the factory crank/cam angle wheel and sensor?

You not going sequential IGN, you're keeping the dizzy and the single pack right? This shouldn't be a big deal. If the stock ECU was triggering off it fine before then the MS shouldn't be having issues.

It will either be wiring of board configuration.

you should not need to worry about EDIS, keep the single pack inductive ignition it should suit your application no worries. How high is your comp and what RPM will you be revving too?
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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #146 on: Mar 20, 2013, 10:34PM »
I'm running a ka24DE dizzy now with the diyautotune cas disc, the stock Ecu was reading the SOHC dizzy before the swap.

Compression was calculated around 11.2:1 or something and I'm putting a limit on the rpm at 6.5k
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #147 on: Mar 22, 2013, 10:10PM »
Car should be fine for 4ms dwell times at that RPM.
the IGN1A race coil will suit it, will fully charge in under 4ms (typically 3ms) with about 120mJ of energy. I use one on my falcon.
It has built in igniter so can be driven directly form Megasquirt without the need for external igniter or "power transistor"
set your output to inverted "no" (ask me to check that if you decided to go this avenu) and your dwell to 3.5ms which will make it stable up to about 7000rpm.
If your using dissy ignition all you need is a 4tooth hall wheel on the dizzy for spark like in the TFI distributors.

A larger missing tooth wheel will also work but im not sure on the configuration requirements.
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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #148 on: Mar 23, 2013, 01:45PM »
To run that coil directly, I say I'd still have to get those jumpers installed and up the ignition output from 5-12v.

As for the dizzy, im running the 36-1 cas disc as displayed on DIY for the ka24de.
I'm going to go back over my setting and wiring tomorrow to sus this outx
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Offline crazy2287

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Re: Urgent help.
« Reply #149 on: Mar 23, 2013, 07:13PM »
no, ign1a will trigger form 5V logic.
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