Author Topic: Religion  (Read 13298 times)

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Offline Jtas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #30 on: Jun 26, 2007, 12:17PM »
......You cant say I dont wanna hear talk from religious folk and then go and spread your own beliefs everywhere because that is not far at all is it?.....

What beliefs? the whole point of not believing is that you don't believe or follow ...

Offline harlot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #31 on: Jun 26, 2007, 12:55PM »
you people are crazy.

If a God does exist and bad things happen then it is malevolent.

Don't you think that if everything was happy and sunshine all the time you wouldn't have hope? you wouldn't think to help someone out because everything would be happy and sunny all the time?

As far as blaming a God for the death of friends and family members... if you were to think of it from the God's point of view... you aren't destroying a soul, but inviting it to the next life.

THAT, Harlot, is one point of Faith.

Death is a part of life. For if the God exists, then death truly is a glorious thing.. a rite of passage... but if It doesn't then you cannot blame a non-existent deity for it.

I've had people kill themselves and cancer runs in my family. I'm certainly not gonna go around pointing the blame at anyone or thing. I'm just gonna look at the small amount of time we really have in the world and try and make something good of it... that, my friends, is the major point of Faith.

This is going to sound bitchy but its the only way i can say it...

The only thing i learnt about you through reading that is that you dont give a shit if someone dies because you believe it is a 'glorious' thing.

Well if that is the 'major' point of religion then i truly dont think i can involve myself in such an act. Im sorry but i know when my parents or my best friend dies im going to be an emotional wreck and want them back. Back next to me living this present life with me not in some after life.

I guess religion isnt for me then Smiley Of Terror and thankyou for showing me that.

I'm not Christian, or Muslim or any other standardized religion, I just know that if I try and making something of the world better, then when I'm on my death bed I'll be ready, and not have any regrets.


... also this is my point exactly. You want to do better in the world, make a difference, achieve something. Most people want to achieve this or something similar and i dont see why they need a god or religion to do that. Then, ive noticed, that in many religious stories the people who have done well or have done good continue to then thank god for apprently being the 'reason' they succeeded. Why cant you just give yourself some credit. It just frustrates me when people say 'god helped me'. Humans can do amazing things... be proud of what you achieve and be proud knowing that you did it.

And MAG86

harlot, if God was in control of every situation would we be free? 

Apart from the fact that i dont think we are technically 'free' taking into consideration all of the rules, guidelines, society's view on how everyone should act, dress, eat, the expectations placed apon you by the people around you etc... I would like you to prove to me that God isnt in control of every situation already.
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2007, 01:26PM by harlot »
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Offline eurisko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #32 on: Jun 26, 2007, 01:23PM »
In my opinion, people need faith to give their lives meaning.

As an athiest, I DONT believe in anything, contrary to what MAG86 says. People need to have a point to their lives, so they can merrily go about their daily business with the hope that once their day comes it wont all just end.

When I pass away, my corpse will rot, and the memory of me will eventually fade away. Im quite comfortable with that fact, and if its what happens with the rest of the animal kingdom, what makes us so special?

I wake up each morning knowing that whatever i do, on the grand scheme of things, is meaninless. Does that mean im depressed, suicidal, or generally an asshole to be around? Does that make me evil? No. Im probably one of the most cheerful people to be around. I enjoy spending time with my family, friends, and helping out those who are in need.

Harlot, you seem to be harbouring a lot of anger. Its true. The world is not fun and games, its not always happy, and it will rain down shit until you crack. Thats life.

Most religious zealots will attest to the fact that god exsits because they see miracles everyday. They also say bad things happen because we were given free will.

I personally (and my reason for being an athiest) believe that if a god does exist, and we are created in his image, he is an absolute bastard. Thousands die everyday from starvation, dirty water, disease, poverty etc. The third world is becoming more and more rampant. The gap between rich and starving is increasing.

World wars, crusaids, mass murder, genocide, all these are human characteristics. Why would god give us the choice of doing such horrendous deeds (eventually, probably, leading to the destruction of the earth) if he knew we would end up doing all this??
What is the point of it all?

If i created a robot, knowing full well as soon as i turned it on, it would kill everyone around it... including me... what would be the purpose of creating it? To show the rest of the world (who doesnt care) what it is capable of?

Please. The old testament showed a god that was quick and swift with the hand of justice. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed at the blink of an eye. The entire world was swiped clean. For what purpose? To end up in the same place.... except with the ability to wipe out the earth over 300 times at the push of a button.

If he exists, hes lost interest. Hes left us with a world run by those who care not for humanity.



In the end, its upto you what you chose to believe, what you chose to wake up to, how you live your life. Some believe that the human stage is the first of many... and is actually nothing compared to the afterlife.

I will live my life with my morals, my views, and my mentality. If there is a god, and im deemed not worthy of heaven, then so be it.

Just know that anger will eventually destroy you from the inside.

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Offline imaspy

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Re: Religion
« Reply #33 on: Jun 26, 2007, 01:31PM »
hmmmm i only read a feew posts in this thread. so, being gloriously misinformed about whats happening, i'll throw my hat into the ring :)

religion: i like the premise of religions. i like that pretty much most religions are all about helping people to lead a better life (sometimes in the name of god, sometimes by discovering what works for you, for eg. in Buddhism). HOWEVER - i am a scientific person at heart, and logic tells me that religion == load of crap. why?
there are a few simple reasons why religion does not work for me.
1. religions are all MADE UP. yes, thats right - at some stage, a faith was written down by somebody. it was conceived. it was thought out. a book was usually written. and almost ALL religions divide power amongst men. thats all its about! it has only ever been about power, and, in the modern day, money. religious scripts, books and verses have been written and re-written throughout history to either suit the changing times or when a MAN has decided he wanted to change things to benefit himself. long story short: nobody wants to have to relingquish their POWER.

2. a simple question: if "god" is real, why are there different religions?! religions that conflict, and argue the existence of someone else's god as being fraudulent or sacrilegious, and decree that followers of other religions must be obliterated and.... well you get the picture... anyway, point being, why is there more than one "god"? most religions have an idea of a heaven/utopia/paradise etc... are they all fighting for prime real estate in the heavens above?! it cannot be answered, because the notion of this whole point is a paradox. religion is proven to be a mass fraud, by OTHER religions; not the people who are not religious.

3. i do have a third point; however this point can only exist if everybody decided there was ONE god. which they cannot; but i will give you the point anyway.
EVIDENCE.
where is it?! do you have any?! no? you dont? gee thats too bad. honestly, i am agnostic. it isnt something i 'believe' in, i dont light candles or pray, but i do accept that there is a possibility that there may be a higher/further/more devine power. it is an extremely teeny tiny little speck of acceptance; kinda like the size of earth against the backdrop of the universe. BUT, i have no proof, no evidence, nothing that tells me "hey dickhead, check this out, its a video of jesus moonwalking on top of the wailing wall!". no. let us not forget that the most basic meaning of the word "faith" is "to believe in something for which there is no proof or evidence". i take my life and my values more seriously than just some book that a man fabricated for his own benefit.

now, the only time i have a problem with religion is when it causes conflict. i'm talking about any conflict here; from great wars, all the way down to arguments between neighbours/friends/family etc, and the segregation of people based on which holy book they have at home. it's frustrating. especially when people use children as fodder in those simple debates. children have no concept of religion; adults teach them to hate someone that they were otherwise friends with. that disgusts me.

if only religions were more about peace than destruction. please dont take me out of context; i'm not saying that all people who are religious are by nature also pricks who wanna cause trouble. thats obvious, of course the vast majority of people arent. but when religion is used as the trump card for a cause against other people... well thats where you can take you beliefs and sod off. if heaven is a higher state of existence, why wait? earth is terrible! fighting! death! categorical scientific evidence that evolution is correct! why not just top yourself now so you can be in the next (better) world?! you can't, because every religious person has niggling doubt, that THIS is all there is; no heaven, no nothing. so they want to live in the now.

just as eurisko has said... i have my own values, morals and ethics etc. as a human being, i have the mind to be able to decide for myself what i choose to believe and utilise as my own values. some people prefer to be spoon fed the ideas of others. whatever works for the individual; just dont be a prick and start trouble because of what you believe, thats all i could ask for.

like i said, i have no problems with religion on a basic level. people can believe what they want. but when that belief causes some to harm or kill others, well... thats when youve gotta question things. dont just accept what you are spoon fed from an early age.
maybe if people followed something like shinto, or maybe even buddhism or something similar.... the world would be a better place.

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« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2007, 01:33PM by imaspy »
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Offline NIZ013

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Re: Religion
« Reply #34 on: Jun 26, 2007, 01:37PM »
Not that i really wanna get into an arguement (or at least not this one) on religion... And i haven't actually read alot of what has been posted but here's my 2c worth...

Everyone's gotta die at some point in time. So might as well live life to the fullest, cos you never know when your time is up. Death is inevitable and i don't believe people should be mocked or treated differently according to their beliefs. It's pretty much an individual thing, like cars. Some people love skylines/pintaras/bluebirds/whatever, some don't. The world would be a pretty boring place if everyone believed in the same thing and drove the same cars and ate the same foods.

Offline harlot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #35 on: Jun 26, 2007, 01:37PM »
Haha what can i say... exams make me angry  :D

But eurisko i absolutly LOVE what you wrote. Completely true!
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Offline thumbtack

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Re: Religion
« Reply #36 on: Jun 26, 2007, 03:59PM »
in my experiance these arguements/conversations/whatever are pretty pointless. everyone has different ideas, we all know that so why have a big wah over it. believe what you want to believe and dont worry about other people. as long as they arent hurting you or forcing you into some weirdo religious cult that states you have to own 7 rabid monkeys to be a true believer, then just leave it.

i generally find that when you do try to have a conversation with someone about their religion/belief system, it usually doesnt end up as simply a conversation. trust me. im a very logical atheist in a relationship with a morman. a goddam morman. that makes for some interesting times. if you have the chance, ask a morman what their whole religion is based on. bunch of kooks :P but i still love him dont i? because in the grand scheme of things, what does it matter? we are all born, we all live, we all die. the end. whatever we believe in along the way is up to us and thats it.
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Offline cruizer

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Re: Religion
« Reply #37 on: Jun 26, 2007, 04:40PM »
I agree with thumbtack. We can continue putting what we think out here but someone will always think that what you believe is wrong.

Offline MAG86

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Re: Religion
« Reply #38 on: Jun 26, 2007, 05:49PM »
I struggle to express what i mean in writing (i.e. posts on a nissan family car forum)

harlot, where in aus are you?

if in Vic , might try and meet up at a cruise or something.... i can explain more then!
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Offline Milford

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Re: Religion
« Reply #39 on: Jun 26, 2007, 06:44PM »
i used to love so called 'god days' at school
because it let me poke holes in their theories while they tried to force them upon me

Offline harlot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #40 on: Jun 26, 2007, 07:42PM »
I agree with thumbtack. We can continue putting what we think out here but someone will always think that what you believe is wrong.

Isn't that with everything though?? Can you think of one topic where everyone agrees.
I don't think anyone here is trying to convert anyone. I'm not telling people with religions to not believe in them and vice versa. Its more that we have a freedom of speech so why not use it (to a sensible extent of course). This is merely a discussion to swap thoughts and opinions with new people.  :)
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Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: Religion
« Reply #41 on: Jun 26, 2007, 09:33PM »
This is going to sound bitchy but its the only way i can say it...

The only thing i learnt about you through reading that is that you dont give a shit if someone dies because you believe it is a 'glorious' thing.

I never said I'm not an emotional wreck when it happens... but it IS a natural part of life. you can't prevent it, and I'm not discounting the whole grieving process... especially when someone hasn't led a full life.. but I don't go seeking blame for when it happens.

... also this is my point exactly. You want to do better in the world, make a difference, achieve something. Most people want to achieve this or something similar and i dont see why they need a god or religion to do that...
heh and I never said I didn't believe in a higher power... mine just happens to be carbohydrate based.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #42 on: Jun 26, 2007, 10:22PM »
Omg i love these threads there always full of arguments. Look its all comes down to if you have a faith good for you. If you dont good for you too. Who really cares if people believe i religion it wont change anything! But the amazing part i find is that people who start these forums are non beilievers in any faiths just looking to rattle some cages. Honestly who give a flying woo hoo.
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Offline harlot

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Re: Religion
« Reply #43 on: Jun 26, 2007, 10:43PM »
...Look its all comes down to if you have a faith good for you. If you dont good for you too. Who really cares if people believe i religion it wont change anything! But the amazing part i find is that people who start these forums are non beilievers in any faiths just looking to rattle some cages. Honestly who give a flying woo hoo.

Im not rattling any cages!

Omg i love these threads there always full of arguments.

By the way you wrote your post id guess that your one of those people who try start shit in these 'kinds' of threads  :)
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Offline Sticky

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Re: Religion
« Reply #44 on: Jun 26, 2007, 11:21PM »
No, dane is just a wierdo, dont pay attention to him.... he has to shave his head to make up for the fact he drives a pulsar that has the power of a hair dryer, funny that, cos its a hair dressers car lol.

Fact of the matter with religion is that, not everyone is going to believe in what you do and vise versa, which will always lead to arguments and people trying to prove which religion is better, thats why the palestinians and the israili's have be at war for however many hundreds of years... all due to religion.

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Offline bondy

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Re: Religion
« Reply #45 on: Jun 26, 2007, 11:47PM »
Fact of the matter with religion is that, not everyone is going to believe in what you do and vise versa, which will always lead to arguments and people trying to prove which religion is better, thats why the palestinians and the israili's have be at war for however many hundreds of years... all due to religion.

amen to that. LOL.  i agree, believing in what ever you want is fine, it's when people try to prove which aspects of their religion actually makes their religion better/more correct/whatever than any other religion that trouble starts.

Offline Febrile

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Re: Religion
« Reply #46 on: Jun 27, 2007, 02:34AM »
Who really cares if people believe i religion it wont change anything!

I think the point is that alot of people (eg. atheists) believe that if people didn't believe in religion, the world would be better off for it.

My beef with any religion is this: why is it that manmade laws, rules and codes of behaviour are inadequate? Why do we need higher beings to tell us the difference between right and wrong? Doesn't a set of unyielding basic moral rights and wrongs, such as those found in the Qur'an or the Bible (thou shalt not kill, covet, etc) condemn human society to a static existence?

I personally prefer to believe that humanity is dynamic and changing, and that as we move through the ages we might change in ways that mean we need to re-evaluate the beliefs at the core of our existence, and such a process will probably be incompatible with most religious doctrines: past, present and future.
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Re: Religion
« Reply #47 on: Jun 27, 2007, 03:51AM »
The fact remains to be that no one at all, not even scientists can fully prove the existence of the universe, how it came to be. how it is and will be, even that guy (crap forgot his name :|) whos like full on atheist/scientologist and is part of every single Religion vs Science battle admits that even he has to have 'faith' in theories and that he's right because of the evidence he has infront of him...
as for Religious people its through experiences they generally have... I've seen heard and been apart of many things which has helped me to believe where I am and what I feel as is right and thats that... sure It's my word versus you, but then who are you to judge me on what my personal experience has been?


I also don't like people quoting the Old Testament so much, the Old Testament was a build up the New Testament and the creation of that New Covenant through what modern christianity's beliefs are of Jesus dieing upon the cross for sin and salvation. The fact remains that God loved us so much and was still a jealous God and so dealt with us in the Old Testament in the ways that he did... Oh also... Just because we are made in the image of God, doesn't mean we are holy, perfect or divine at all, in all honesty I'm yet to fully understand what being made in his image is because I don't study a lot of theoretical stuff atm, just don't have the time for it... but the fact remains we werent made perfect, it all came down to Adam and Eve in the Garden (and speaking of, theres talk among Christian Theorists about whether that was Real or just like almost a story about Creation and essentially the first 'Fall of Man')

The fact remains that us Christians are still learning about what we believe as are Scientists still learning in their own way... and whos to say whos right? You can't deny personal experience, but then again you cant disprove small bits of evidence for instance of the earths age (but then I could get into a big long spiel about how 1 day in Gods time necessarily wasn't one earthly day, it could have been possibly millions of years, time is not a conceptual thing to a what I would believe as an everlasting eternal almighty God amirite?)



lol I probably should have replied sooner because I've found it hard to counter, or try to respond to a lot of the questions, but I had my go there :P haha



P.S. on the issue of beliefs... what sort of belief is it to be going around sleeping with women, getting plastered and taking drugs etc? Isn't there more to life then using other people to get to a place of satisfaction while degrading others?

I don't know but thats my view of it atleast, and how I see a lot of the non christian people I know act too :/

It really is a sad day and time when I can't even go to Adelaide City Skate at 1am without being approached by a bunch of doped up drunkish people wanting to try and start with me and beat the crap out of me, seriously? where does government laws fit into this?
government isnt exactly enforcing it well is it? whereas through a faith based way, people that believe in what they believe put to practice all of this! Your not going to find a Christian bloke going around doped up and drunk wanting to beat the crap out of people are you? Sure not all non-religious people are like this, but these days, im beginning to find the majority of people are somehow getting involved in that way...

I'm not saying non-christian people are not nice people at all, heck I know lots of lovely people that don't go to church and stuff, for instance my parents and a lot of old high school buddies (and I went to a Christian school mind you), but the fact remains... current humanistic law isnt really helping that much in any regard is it? I mean those old buddies of mine go around breaking into things, beating up people, just sitting around blowing money on alcohol and not improving the world at all :/ except for the wallets of cigarette and alcohol companies.

Offline Febrile

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Re: Religion
« Reply #48 on: Jun 27, 2007, 05:17AM »
Your not going to find a Christian bloke going around doped up and drunk wanting to beat the crap out of people are you? Sure not all non-religious people are like this, but these days, im beginning to find the majority of people are somehow getting involved in that way...

I would contest whether it is a Christian faith that prevents this behaviour, or rather a better standard of living during childhood and a better education, both of which are often found in Christian households, because of the demographics of christian believers as opposed to the grace of god.
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Re: Religion
« Reply #49 on: Jun 27, 2007, 09:41AM »
i agree that its the upbringing as well, not the presence of a faith in the household. for various reasons my family is non religious, but i consider myself to be a good person, and i think the same for my entire family.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: Jun 27, 2007, 12:57PM »
Quote
Your not going to find a Christian bloke going around doped up and drunk wanting to beat the crap out of people are you?

LOL yeah, you're right, that would have never happened, anytime, in the history of mankind. never :D
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Offline Smiley Of Terror

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Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: Jun 27, 2007, 04:59PM »

My beef with any religion is this: why is it that manmade laws, rules and codes of behaviour are inadequate? Why do we need higher beings to tell us the difference between right and wrong? Doesn't a set of unyielding basic moral rights and wrongs, such as those found in the Qur'an or the Bible (thou shalt not kill, covet, etc) condemn human society to a static existence?


having man made laws requires a council of people to come together and write the laws (there was actually a Hebrew council formed to come up with what went in the scriptures), this council of people would then be under the scutiny of their own laws... so if they didn't follow them, the whole society would then figure that they didn't have to also..
Having a deity who is perfect and sinless is a figure head for the rules and laws. They have no ability to sin, therefore is a symbol for the followers to strive to be like. So a council saying the laws came from above totally covers their arses if they sin, they can say that they are not perfect themselves, but you should try and be like the Deity.

"Man made God in their own image" ;)

I make dinner in my Godss image every week :P spaghetti and meatball yum yum

i agree that its the upbringing as well, not the presence of a faith in the household. for various reasons my family is non religious, but i consider myself to be a good person, and i think the same for my entire family.

this is a funny one. 'cause our society's laws are based on Christian values. so your automatic response for "good person" is the same as the Christian views. so "faith" believe it or not, has had a big impact on your values, as our entire society has been built upon those values.
As a comparison: take your run of the mill Viking, is he considered a good person by his people if he rapes, pillages and plunders? yes! but if he helps the weak and doesn't strive to "ensure the continuity of his genealogy by force" then he's considered a bad person by his society..
« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2007, 05:05PM by Smiley Of Terror »
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Offline thumbtack

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Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: Jun 27, 2007, 05:51PM »
LOL yeah, you're right, that would have never happened, anytime, in the history of mankind. never :D

hahahahahaha
The old USSR had a single time zone. They had a hammer and sickle in the ground near the Kremlin much like a sundial.
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Offline eurisko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: Jun 27, 2007, 06:18PM »
I also don't like people quoting the Old Testament so much, the Old Testament was a build up the New Testament and the creation of that New Covenant through what modern christianity's beliefs are of Jesus dieing upon the cross for sin and salvation. The fact remains that God loved us so much and was still a jealous God and so dealt with us in the Old Testament in the ways that he did...

That shits me. Hard.

"Nahhh we dont like what happens in the old testament... too much blood violence and God hates everyone... We'll just ignore all that and focus on the good stuff... or the stuff we want everyone else to read"

PFFTTT

Pick and choose what you want to make everything seem all fine and dandy.

Example

"And on the 4th day, God created the Sun and the Moon and the Heavens"

Well... thats all good and nice... particularly when you cant have the first 3 days without a sun now can you?

But, thats beyond the point.

What i am emphasising is that religion, dictated by people with alteriour motives... will decide what is "acceptable" for the general public.

I find that unnacceptable. If you really believe in the word of god, you'll want to read it unaltered. Not like this watered down and censored stuff thats pawned off as the word of god.

Wow... Rant much?  :P

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Offline Milford

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Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: Jun 27, 2007, 07:33PM »
Quote
Your not going to find a Christian bloke going around doped up and drunk wanting to beat the crap out of people are you? Sure not all non-religious people are like this, but these days, im beginning to find the majority of people are somehow getting involved in that way...

haha, you're not going to find athiests on crusades either

Offline Dano Da Bomb

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Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: Jun 27, 2007, 08:11PM »
No, dane is just a wierdo, dont pay attention to him.... he has to shave his head to make up for the fact he drives a pulsar that has the power of a hair dryer, funny that, cos its a hair dressers car lol.



By the way you wrote your post id guess that your one of those people who try start shit in these 'kinds' of threads  :)
lol smart ass lol
As for having a shaved head i dont anymore but i will admit i still drive a hair dressers car  :(
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Offline VladIvanovic

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Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: Jun 28, 2007, 01:26AM »
haha, you're not going to find athiests on crusades either


hahaha I'll pay that, funny as :)



and on milfords post, just because something written in one way means it is all meant literally? I can say your an butthole, but its not meant literally, I'm no theologist but you know, just as anything in this life, we are all still learning... why does that mean that christians have to have everything in order? no one is perfect or knows all the secrets of the world, not even I who's a 'religious' person

Offline thumbtack

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Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: Jun 28, 2007, 04:32PM »
I can say your an butthole, but its not meant literally

hahaha i'd like to see that. someone that is a butthole
The old USSR had a single time zone. They had a hammer and sickle in the ground near the Kremlin much like a sundial.
Arguments raged for years as to what to call the timezone
Moscow Time?
Comrade Time?
In the end they all agreed.
Hammer Time.

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Offline oldn_tired

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Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: Jul 1, 2007, 12:10AM »
Yes it is sad that we are a people of convenience, we seem to find and loose religion as we require it.
we can be an agnostic but still ask for gods help, or utter a Jesus Christ, or declare some thing to be an act of god when it suits us.
And I must admit that as I was wandering KMart this morning and followed a sweet thing with the most divine arse I did momentarily become a believer in a higher power(stalker !!, who said stalker??????)
God bless skin tight low cut jeans.

I also recall a comedian called Dave Allen who at the end of his show would sign off with the phrase "good night and may your god go with you"  a statement which has always appealed to me